Another Victim lost BACK TO WT - how sad

by JT 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    a few days back a DFed black woman came to this site - asking for help and looking for answers, so Lady "C and myself decided to offer our help, being black we understand that black jw face some issues that a white witness would not, black congo operate many times in a somewhat different fashion in my exp at any rate , we offered our help, we discussed many issues, but in the end she has decided to return back to wt despite the fact that they treat her like dirt- one of the hardest things to watch is to see a jw get so close to freedom and then return to slavery, it reminds me so much of blacks during slavery who were just afraid to run for freedom , even many times when they only needed to cross the river -as a single black mature woman she is facing an uphill battle, if she approaches an elder more than 2 times the elders wife will think she is after her man, if she wants to marry her selection is reduced to some guy with a plaid suit on, instead of the Regional Director of her company who notices how intelligent she is, but since he don't sell books on the weekend she must let him slide- well here is just a glisp of what we dealt with and how sadly it ended with the jw doing what they have been trained and indoctrinated to do RUN AND DENY BELOW ARE JUST 3 DIFFERENT SETS OF DIALOG

    ---- DFED PERSON--Sorry, but I don't really think that it is a black and white issue.

    JT- O I fully agree it is not a black and white issue, I was merely commenting on what my observation have been, when I was an elder, white bro in meetings would always challenged the CO and DO if they made some off the wall comment, while black elders would consistently just go along,

    And now that I have left the organization, when a white person is presented with facts, proofs, documentation, they consistently are more willing to further examine things for themselves, while in my 7 yrs of exp on the net I have seen blacks continue to run from the Net and Information and why --CAUSE THE SOCIETY TOLD THEM WHAT THEY CAN'T READ AS ADULTS-

    In fact if you surf any of the sites on the web you will find less blacks here, we went to a former jw gathering with 100's of folks with all kinds of life stories and it was just a handful of blacks and I was asked point blank, since most urban congo are mainly black why are they reluctant to examine things, and I gave the old line well maybe they don't have PCs or they are not really into the Net, but I knew from my own exp most blacks I spoke with would always say

    "You better leave that stuff alone, you know what the Society says"

    so I was merely making a comment in ref to what my personal exp was in relationship to who would question issues and followup on those questions----------but there are white persons just like blacks and any other races WHO refuse to examine anything,

    I think that in many respects, people make the choice to leave the organization because of emotion. They are upset because someone mistreated them or as you've mentioned, because the FDS has readjusted their teachings in a way that directly impacts them.

    You are correct it is due to emotions many times , folks are emotionally abused, being made to feel worthless, like they just can't do enough-and as you talk to folks all over the world on the net you will see this constant pattern of folks being made to feel like dirt cause they have to work overtime or they are single or they can't comment as good as someone else or their hours are not HIGH ENOUGH

    - so one must ask the question why is it jw in Sweden are treating folks the same way as in 25 other countries, it is due to we learned the same thing and that is how to view folks who don't measure up-

    Yes thinking many times that the rules are god's rules when in fact over and over again after one stops and does the research one sees that the rules are just man made that we have been trying to measureup too.

    It is interesting that you refer to the FDS readjusting " THEIR TEACHINGS"

    and therein lies the problem , many of their teachings are not based on the bible, but THEIRS-- YES THEIR OPINION, yet they are presented as if they are based on the bible.

    If the wt did bible commentary they would be just fine, for in doing bible commentary it allows for you to give YOUR OPINION, and then come back and give another opinion,

    But when you step onto the world scene and announce WE speak for god and if you don't listen to our message GOD WILL KILL YOU,

    Then you have put on a big pair of boots that you better make sure you can fill,

    To produce material and present it to jw and billions of people around the earth as the will of god and then tell your own people that they will be Dfed and shunned by everyone in their family if they question and don't accept what they say is sad, You just can't produce doctrines and sign god's name to it.

    There are 2 bible principals that the wt constantly breaks

    1. going beyond what is written

    2. trying to set dates and time frames

    Most jw have no idea that "FDS" does little of the actually writing, currently most of the writing is done by regular guys who work in the writing dept and that is why so much of the publication in the last few years are no more than CUT AND PASTE

    However, I also know that we are dealing with imperfect human beings. That being the case, I cannot expect perfection from them

    Actually I agree, I don't expect perfection either, but is asking for honesty too much to ask, to teach doctrines that you know are unbiblcal, to Df someone for questioning that is wrong,

    and quite frankly, I do not for one moment believe that it is their intention to mislead anyone.

    I used to feel the same way as you do-- till I started doing my research, , while it may not be their "intentions" that is the results,

    you and I and millions of others were mislead into making life decisions and chooses and they knew what they were writing and how the avg jw was responding.

    Have they been misguided, mistaken and just flat out wrong in regard to certain issues? Absolutely!! Do I personally think that there are certain areas where we are off base? YES!! But, I do not believe that there is any other religious organization that more accurately teaches God's word, nor do I believe that Jehovah is working with any other group than Jehovah's Witnesses. I am sorry if you feel differently.

    As I read this part of your post I recall telling someone the same thing about 7 years ago, so I Fully understand how and why you feel the way you do.

    What I would like to do is to take the 3 issues I mentioned to you and show what happens when you do a little research on the history of the organization and how doctrines are developed, modify and most importantly WHY/

    It has often been stated that if you don't know were you came from you have no idea as to where you are going.
    And for the avg jw they have no idea about the history of their religion, beyond WHAT THEIR RELIGION HAS TOLD THEM.

    I do commend you for at least having an open mind, as a jw we would knock on folks doors every weekend asking them

    Are you openminded enough to examine information that may not put your religion in a good light- yet as a jw we could never examine anything that was considered "Critical of the society-

    What we encouraged others to do we ourselves were forbidden to do - kinda sad

    Have you had to opportunity to read the book "Crisis of Conscience" if not- this is one book you need to read

    You can order it off for $10-14

    it is written by a former Governing Body member, I was very surprised when I read it cause I expected to see an angry person writing a book instead

    He kept the emotions out and merely DEALed WITH THE FACTS, one of the things he did was DOCUMENT EVERYTHING HE WROTE-

    If you have ever had any doubts and most jw do, they are simply told to get rid of them - instead of investigate them

    His book will show you why you had doubts, he goes into explainin just how they develop doctrines and rules that affect the lives of millions - he goes into how they fully know certain doctrines and rules are wrong, but they depend on the fact that no jw will challenge them, so they are able to keep certain doctrines and rules in place for years.

    One of the most interesting things he did in his book was in 1980 discussed doctrines that the wt knew were wrong and knew they would have to change due to time running out on them-

    It wasn't an issue of "New Light", it was an issue of- we can't teach this anymore cause it don't' make sense

    He also goes into detail in terms of how the writing dept came up with the concept of "NEW LIGHT"

    It has little to do with the light getting brighter, but the information it all out there for those who want to know the real deal

    And my only advice is take advantage of the information that Is available to you

    Regardless of what you do or not do, it will never change the fact that this information is there for you and others to lay out on the table and examine it and see what the conclusion is

    I can honestly say I fully understand why the Wt has always told us not to read this or not to discuss that or not to ask too many questions

    It's kinda funny when you think about it, when a person is studying to become a jw we commend and praise them to High Heaven for asking lots of questions, but the moment they hit the water they better not ask another question, esp in the context of THE SOCIETY COULD BE WRONG,

    BUT AS my father-in-law puts it, when you are studying YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THE RIGHT QUESTIONS TO ASK, it 's only afterward and then it's too late

    How sad


    PS: I will address your comments on the 3 issues starting with the Generation doctrine



    I have really grown weary from all of this debate. I understand and respect your position - but I don't agree with it. And yes, I do consider myself to be a very open-minded and intelligent person. I feel that I have thoroughly examined my beliefs and I am satisfied with them. I am truly sorry that you feel you've devoted much of your life to something in which you no longer believe and I wish you and your wife the very best. However, we are on two entirely separate paths and the is no further need for us to continue this dialog.

    MY FINAL EMAIL TO HER-------------------- If you would -- and I beg of you, do this one favor for me. Print this email out, put it into an envelope, date it and seal it. For the last 7 yrs I have been on the Net whenever I speak to someone who decides they no longer want to discuss matters I have always asked them to save our final Email. I hate to be so blunt but in another 3 to 5 yrs you will perhaps look back and say what so many folks i have spoken to in the last 7 yrs have said , If I had only acted on the information that was right in front of me- You will look back in total disbelief at the fact that you could have found out the truth about the "Truth", while you maybe saying to yourself "I think Not" please save this email thanks James PS: Whenever you want to talk or need someone to touchbase with feel free to call- 202-336-8792

    Edited by - jt on 3 January 2003 12:3:53

  • unclebruce

    captivating post JT,

    what a sad place the jw world is for intelligent women. such a waste. you did your best jt, we can't live peoples lives for them and i'm sure the lady learned some stuff.

    I'd be interested to hear more about the differences in the way black congregations operate in comparison to white ones. i know these things often work on quite a subtle level but it's fascinating all the same.

    happy 2003 unc.

    Edited by - unclebruce on 3 January 2003 13:11:4

  • jimbob

    James, you truly are a wise person. I think that was an excellent idea to print and save your e-mail. You brought up such excellent points, I don't see how an open-minded, reasonable person could refute what you said. Hopefully she will do as you suggested and at a later date, realize the foolishness of what she has been taught and leave the WT. I only wish 7 years ago I was able to print your e-mail....

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hi JT,

    I can only imagine the grief and frustration that situations like this might make you feel. How many times in our former lives as JWs did we feel similar grief and frustration over foks who "didn't get it?"

    I'm a white guy, so I suppose by definition I can't understand "The Black Experience," at least not according to some today*. Is it possible that these people feel that their life would not improve in any significant way if they left the WTS, so just keep on keeping on; maintain the social circle, at least. Cutures (social circles) share imaginations in common, and the WTS culture shares the "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" and "Let's Live Through Armageddon and Walk Into Paradise" imaginings. If you want to be part of the social circle - the "community," the "culture" - you have to share the dream.

    It is a seductive dream, a tranquil dream - the "Sky Daddy" loves YOU, if you love HIM, and the Sky Daddy will watch over you, and take care of you, giving you "meat in due season," if you stick to the organization that HIS faithful slaves have put together. You will ride in a spiritual Ark through the turbulent waters of the end of "this wicked system of things" and - just like in the WTS illustrations - walk straight into paradise, where you will re-united with all your dead loved ones because Sky Daddy will resurrect them. You will live forever in a perfect, unfailing body free of pain or illness.

    It can be hard to give that up in exchange for "there is no Sky Daddy," this is the way reality is, you are on your own, get used to it."

    *personally, I prefer "I am a man, nothing human is foreign to me."

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 3 January 2003 13:38:18

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 3 January 2003 13:40:26

  • JamesThomas

    You did what you could James.

    A farmer plants the seeds. He doesn't make them grow.


  • teejay


    It's a very poignant moment when you realize that the person you're just about to pull from the water loses their grip and they slip back in, taken by the raging current downstream, around the bend, and finally out of your sight -- maybe for the last time. It makes me sad all over again, even now, to think of it.

    Your post reminds me exactly of discussions (email and in person) that I had with my kid sister a couple of years ago when I thought she was ready to hear bit and pieces of the truth about the Truth(tm). I was wrong.


    A second such experience happened only six or eight weeks ago. Thanks to this same sister of mine, I got in touch with a JW brother we hadn't seen or talked to for twenty years. Somehow, she had tracked him down in Colorado. He and our entire family were very close when I was growing up and I looked forward very much to talking to him again after all those years. Back then, I looked up to him as sort of a mentor. He and I were always able to talk about anything. We were very close. Being able to talk to him again was going to be quite a treat.

    Right off the bat he asked me, "so... how are you doing spiritually" and I thought... oh, no. Here we go...

    When I last knew him, he was a regular pioneer and one of the favorite elders -- very sincere and warm (for an elder) but still a company man all the way. I found out pretty quick on the phone that he hadn't changed one bit. I tried to pull a JW and ask viewpoint questions, what if's, engage in theocratic warfare(tm) (smile) and otherwise do everything I could to evade his point-blank questions. Questions like:"do you still believe that jehovah is leading the governing body"? Hell... all I wanted was for the convo to continue.

    Didn't work.

    It wasn't long before the convo was wrapping up. He told me that I reminded him of so many preachers he and I had talked to years ago when we pioneered together. Why... I even sounded like I might be, "going apostate." Finally he told me that he didn't see any need to continue the conversation and that, until I decided to "come back to Jehovah," there wasn't any need for us to talk together ever again.

    It hurt cause it was so good to hear his voice again after all that time, but oh well. After I hung up, I deleted his phone # that I had programmed into my cell phone.

    Since "failing" to help both my sister and this old friend, I've wondered: did I try to tell them too much too soon? And, would it have mattered if I'd done it a different way?

  • BluesBrother
    Since "failing" to help both my sister and this old friend, I've wondered: did I try to tell them too much too soon? And, would it have mattered if I'd done it a different way?


    Sound like this man is just so far in, that nothing would shake him .Motivated dubs are just not wanting to hear anything else, for the reasons that Nathan Natas said above.

    Over Christmas we visited by wifes family . Our brother in law just would not take in anything I said - totally blinkered, although a decent fellow._

  • ashitaka

    Wow. I feel so sad for her. She's so trapped.


  • ugg

    at least you did everything you could....try not to feel bad....its ok....

  • chester


    it really is a sad situation. It sounds like she just does not want to hear the real truth.

    There are so many out there just like her.

    I hope she is reading the board today...maybe she will reconsider.

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