Nails in The WT Coffin

by hillbilly 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • TR
    TR

    Scully said:

    and JWs will be so intellectually lazy that they won't have the fortitude to do the research on their own in the magazines and bound volumes.

    This is exactly what happened with my 'hovah brother when I questioned him about the famous 1/1/89 WT article. He checked the bound volumn and not the original article. I did send him a scanned copy of the original, though.

    No Apologies said:

    And I have never heard of any recall or thinning of the Kingdom Hall libraries.

    This was indeed the case at the hall I attended in the early eighties. They s**t-canned(sent back to the society) all of the older books.

    TR

    Edited by - TR on 30 December 2002 12:18:32

  • Roddy
    Roddy

    Hillbilly >>Whats the old saying- somthing about "enough rope and you will hang yourself"? The "Blessing" of The WT CD will be a curse. Many of the articulate, informed comments we find on this ( and other) boards have been formed using the CD . I really doubt that many would have the patience to do the reasearch and comparisons working strictly in a paper format. <<

    There is one flaw in your argument. Since the WTS holds the information, then the WTS can make quiet edits to the information. I'm sure even the original 1993 WT CD had damning information quietly altered or removed. Even bound volumes are affected.

    The only way to catch the WTS, and to catch them making unannounced changes to their literature, is to have the original published magazines and books, and have all that compared to the bound volumes and WT CDs. Where the comparisons fail that is where the WTS will look double bad: Not only are they caught with the damning information but they are caught in secret tampering of the evidence to avoid being linked with the damning information.

    It will take a lot of people a lot of time going over a lot of paper and data but, if this is carefully done, then the WTS will surely be hung by it as you say.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Ray Franz left the GB and was later DFd for apostasy

    Can you clarify this for me. I never understood it to have happened like that.

    --------------------------------------

    Link, it's my understanding that Ray was not disfellowshipped for apostacy as they had no proof of anything on him. So what did they do? They followed him around, and ending up disfellowshipping him for having a meal in a restaurant with either his boss or his landlord (can't remember which), who was disassociated. This shows what a bunch of desperate old goats the GB members were, that they had to trump up ridiculous charges like this.

    Of course, the GB made damn sure that the rumours that went out from Brooklyn, was that Ray was disfellowshipped for "apostacy." Ask any faithful Dub who was around in the early '80s and they'll tell you without hesitation that this is why he was DF'd.

  • No Apologies
    No Apologies

    TR,

    how old of books are we talking? old books from the 60's and 70's? or really old? Were these books from the literature counter or from the library?

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly
    There is one flaw in your argument. Since the WTS holds the information, then the WTS can make quiet edits to the information. I'm sure even the original 1993 WT CD had damning information quietly altered or removed. Even bound volumes are affected.

    Roddy-- they have done that with Bound Volumes forever. And as a few others have said, they will edit and alter the CD format too.

    Especially if it suits their purpose to do so.... Intellectual fraud and a literary "shell game" with the published word is a time honored tradition in the Society.

    The "flawed argument" you mentioned.. well I didnt intend to defend a proper debate about this in this thread. I do stand by the original premise I had when I started this post. CD Rom as a medium will make what was done by questioning brothers Easier to do, those with a questioning or investigative bend will find that the "heavy lifting" is done research wise.

    The only way to catch the WTS, and to catch them making unannounced changes to their literature, is to have the original published magazines and books, and have all that compared to the bound volumes and WT CDs. Where the comparisons fail that is where the WTS will look double bad: Not only are they caught with the damning information but they are caught in secret tampering of the evidence to avoid being linked with the damning information

    That' still correct-- the only problem one will never win that argument with the Bethel powerbrokers. WT Logic 101 clearly says that even if YOU CAN COMPARE the changed text directly you must produce TWO witnesses to actually prove WE did it. (Don't laugh- i just hade the same logic used on me while trying to get a elder to use his own literature AGAINST ME). Plus they put enough stuff out to catch em' no matter how much they edit.

    Like I said at the start-- The Watchtower "mistake" in not being savvy enough to understand that Technology works agains them.

    Metron I think mentioned the WTCD data goes back 30 or 40 years max. I stand corrected if my "100 years" seems misleading. But as we know, even today the "SLAVE" is not above pulling a chestnut out of archives. The stuff from the last 30 or 40 years has many quotes and references to stuff as old as Russell's time. Plus, some of the "wordly" quotations can be brought into context today, by non- academics ( like me) easier than in the past using the NET. The CD Rom makes it easier for one to track the old references back to paper if needed.

    No Apologies

    how old of books are we talking? old books from the 60's and 70's? or really old? Were these books from the literature counter or from the library?

    NA- the books we removed were all very old ones. The Society seems to be very embaressed by a lot of the pre 50's stuff. I was the "assistant Library servent" (my kiddy Kingdom Hall job) back in the late 70's and early 80's. I know we let the freinds pick through some of the stuff but I don't recall any of it sent back to the Society per se'. I can also tell you that for whatever reason some of the Halls that I have visited often over the years no Longer have any Russell-Rutherford era books in the library any more. I also found that established old Halls tended to have more old books in the Library than the newer Congregations.

    Of course the last Hall I went to at all in the mid 90's still had a few collectables on the shelf. (but when has every Hall really done what "Mother" asks?)

    Thanks For the Feedback- I am glad to post a topic that gets a little discussion -HB

    Sorry for the double post

    Edited by - hillbilly on 30 December 2002 13:26:0

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly
    There is one flaw in your argument. Since the WTS holds the information, then the WTS can make quiet edits to the information. I'm sure even the original 1993 WT CD had damning information quietly altered or removed. Even bound volumes are affected.

    Roddy-- they have done that with Bound Volumes forever. And as a few others have said, they will edit and alter the CD format too.

    Especially if it suits their purpose to do so.... Intellectual fraud and a literary "shell game" with the published word is a time honored tradition in the Society.

    The "flawed argument" you mentioned.. well I didnt intend to defend a proper debate about this in this thread. I do stand by the original premise I had when I started this post. CD Rom as a medium will make what was done by questioning brothers Easier to do, those with a questioning or investigative bend will find that the "heavy lifting" is done research wise.

    The only way to catch the WTS, and to catch them making unannounced changes to their literature, is to have the original published magazines and books, and have all that compared to the bound volumes and WT CDs. Where the comparisons fail that is where the WTS will look double bad: Not only are they caught with the damning information but they are caught in secret tampering of the evidence to avoid being linked with the damning information

    That' still correct-- the only problem one will never win that argument with the Bethel powerbrokers. WT Logic 101 clearly says that even if YOU CAN COMPARE the changed text directly you must produce TWO witnesses to actually prove WE did it. (Don't laugh- i just hade the same logic used on me while trying to get a elder to use his own literature AGAINST ME). Plus they put enough stuff out to catch em' no matter how much they edit.

    Like I said at the start-- The Watchtower "mistake" in not being savvy enough to understand that Technology works agains them.

    Metron I think mentioned the WTCD data goes back 30 or 40 years max. I stand corrected if my "100 years" seems misleading. But as we know, even today the "SLAVE" is not above pulling a chestnut out of archives. The stuff from the last 30 or 40 years has many quotes and references to stuff as old as Russell's time. Plus, some of the "wordly" quotations can be brought into context today, by non- academics ( like me) easier than in the past using the NET. The CD Rom makes it easier for one to track the old references back to paper if needed.

    No Apologies

    how old of books are we talking? old books from the 60's and 70's? or really old? Were these books from the literature counter or from the library?

    NA- the books we removed were all very old ones. The Society seems to be very embaressed by a lot of the pre 50's stuff. I was the "assistant Library servent" (my kiddy Kingdom Hall job) back in the late 70's and early 80's. I know we let the freinds pick through some of the stuff but I don't recall any of it sent back to the Society per se'. I can also tell you that for whatever reason some of the Halls that I have visited often over the years no Longer have any Russell-Rutherford era books in the library any more.

    Of course the last Hall I went to at all in the mid 90's still had a few collectables on the shelf. (but when has every Hall really done what "Mother" asks?)

    Thanks For the Feedback- I am glad to post a topic that gets a little discussion -HB

  • Axelspeed
    Axelspeed

    This is how I see it: The WT is not going anywhere soon. This dawned on me as I sat in a KH one day and looked around and noticed who was there, mostly the very elderly and the very young and new to the WT ( post 1990). While there are certainly many older true believers, I think a lot of the older ones see the inconsistencies but stay for fear and social/ family reasons and thinking it would take too much to start over building relationships. For many this is all they have.

    The young and the new are just that, young and new. These are ones that have not been through the full cycle of hope through to disillusionment ( I think this cycle is crucial to having a complete understanding of the whole picture, and while experience is not always the best teacher it can be a pretty effective one). Most that I see have come in post 1990 and don't have the first clue about the WT of the 60s 70s and 80s. They have no clue about 1914 and its significance (or ramifications), and might not even care. If there is a change in the blood policy, while it might effect long-timers who understand the history, most now will just welcome it as new light. Malawi, what is that? Food service at conventions that last from sunup to sundown, I feel like I'm talking to strangers. I know one person who read COC, and doesn't have a clue of the significance of some of the doctrines and how deeply lives were affected at one time (nowadays I feel the grip is loosening as newer ones aren't willing to forfeit certain freedoms- just a product of the culture). Most new ones come at critical times in there lives to a place where they have built in friends and a feeling of love (albeit conditional, but this realization does not come till later).

    The point is the WT is evolving, whether they like it or not. Gone are the glory days of nose to the grindstone field service, doctrinal discussion, looking to bethel as Valhalla for brothers, or pioneering for sisters. Also, nowadays things are getting tight for WT in a way because the turnover ratio is tremendous. As a result it is not uncommon in some congs. for a brother to be baptized and 3 months later be handling mikes, 6 mos later be asked to help behind the counter, 1.5 years later ( if he keeps his nose clean and has 10 hrs./mo) be appointed MS, and within another 5 yrs be an elder. If he is exceptional and a good speaker, and if he is in the right cong. and in front of the right people in 7-8 he could be speaking at an assembly. As a result, many are not seasoned, are concerned about organizational procedure ahead of all else (go to any elders school and compare time spent on Bible discussion with time spent on procedure), and some could be categorized as being very close to corporate ladder-climbers jockeying for position.

    The WT worst enemy right now is information. And we live in a Society that is information driven. The internet is here to stay, you need it at school, on the job, if fact it is getting to where it is impossible to function without it. If the WT was not worried about it, (and really wanted get the message out) there is no reason each and every issue should not be online. And yes, I feel they greatly underestimate how technology savvy people, especially young people (even in the WT), are. I also believe there may be some validity to the assertion of a wish to present a public face on the internet, and another one in the KH.

    Doctrinally, they can't shed some things fast enough (revisionist history, etc). It will be tricky and there will be casualties, but it will survive. For my purposes though it would be enough as those I am close to and still in KNOW the history and the doctrine. They have been there for the whole cycle. I think that if persons walked away today and went back in 15 yrs. they will not recognize the religion or the faces.

    Edited by - Axelspeed on 30 December 2002 13:39:34

  • link
    link

    Mary,

    Thanks for clearing that up for me - I can breathe again. What you have said is almost identical to my understandng.

    If anyone might be wondering (I bet you're not), this is important to me because I have challenged my wife to provide me with one shred of evidence that Ray was disfellowshipped for apostacy, as she and her JW friends claim.

    I thought for a moment that I was about to be undone!

    Thanks again.

    link

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I noticed they have the 1958 book, "Your Will be Done on Earth" on the 1999 CD ROM. I also have the original hard copy of the book. It would be interesting when I have time to compare the two and see if they made any changes when putting it on the CD.

    As far as the question of Ray Franz DFing. Ray was DF for eating with a DF person, not for apostasy. After Ray resigned from the GB, they the GB was out to get him and finally got him for having a meal with his boss who was DF. That is what I recall from Ray's book C of C.

    Will

    Edited by - william penwell on 30 December 2002 15:29:33

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    axelspeed

    Very insightful post. I suspect that you are correct regarding the ability of the WTS to control information flow. Information will indeed be their worst enemy. They are already having a difficult time keeping the disclosures about the pedophiles quiet. As people become more computer literate, they are going to do a web search before they agree to do a bible study.

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