Athiests and Christmas?

by clash_city_rockers 105 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Funky where do I start? Well Ill lead off here:

  I don't have atheistic principles. I simply do not believe in gods.

  The fact that you deny that there are any gods is in itself an atheistic principle.

  Funky writes:

  Perhaps it's the same sort of pragmatism that led the church to adopt the pagan wintertime celebrations and most of their trappings.

  Surprisingly I agree with your pragmatist charge to the church but unlike your claim Christians have done away with the pagan trappings and their intentions they are just silly decorations. But you pragmatist charge has validity and I may not completely agree with there reasons to abrogate and do get rid of the pagan day Winter Solstice and replace it with the festive celebration of the coming of God the Son. But the intention had a good a biblical one. Christmas has sort of an Eschatological meaning since it fell at the end of the calendar year and celebrated the coming of Christ and the meaning was festive since it represented the Victory of Christ over the world hence the end of the old pagan order Winter Solstice and the beginning of the new order and the reign of Christ.

  Funky says:

  That's exactly what I accused you of, not believing that people are really atheists. You can't conceive how someone could come to the conclusion that there are no gods, so rather than trying to understand it, you think that we're angry with your god and just pretend not to believe in it.

  Yet Funky, this is the language of scripture. Listen to Pauls statements in Romans 1:19-23

  19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
  21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

  Yet this describes you completely. You replace the biblical God with the self exaltation as man as the measure.

  Since God is the creator of everything in the world since that is so you cannot give an account for anything in the created order nor can you explain its existence with any intelligibility. This is why atheism is so inconsistent because in order to explain anything in the created order it must borrow from the Christian world view from which atheism denies.

  Second Atheism cannot consistently be lived. This is the MAIN point of our thread.

  The very fact that you celebrate a Theistic Christian holiday is evident that you do not really hold to atheism and that atheism cannot be lived. What you curse (Christianity) is also what you enjoy the fruits of (Christmas). If you where truly a true consistent atheist you would have nothing to do with Christmas.

  JR

  Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 16 December 2002 23:13:5
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Elsewhere, goes out of his way to deny his atheistic Dogma writes:

  I'm an atheist and this year is the first time I am observing christmas... I figured, "what the hell?" Why not? I see no problem with getting into the "spirit" of christmas... family, love, giving, etc...

  Yes, I even setup a little christmas tree with presents from loved ones.

  Personally Elsewhere, I am glad that you are going out of your way to celebrate Christmas. It is great to see you exercise responsibly your freedom in celebrating Christmas and breaking away from the legalistic dogma of those Consistent atheists that believe that celebrating Christmas is violating their atheist doctrine of no god. It is good to see you break away from the legalism of atheism and their strict anti-theistic dogma.

  Enjoy Christmas at the expense of Christianity,

  jr
• 

  Aztec

  hahaha enjoy Christmas at the expense of Christianity? LOL You go enjoy X-mas at the expense of numerous pagans Clash! I won't even expend myself to say what I think of your ideas. They are laughable at best...

  Again I ask Should Christians celebrate the Winter Solstice?

  Do you have an answer Clash? Hmmm?

  ~Aztec
• 

  SixofNine

  Clash is quite insane, you know?
• 

  pseudoxristos

  Second Atheism cannot consistently be lived. This is the MAIN point of our thread.

  There is no need for an Atheist to a live a life in which every action is determined by his disbelief in God. Atheists are free to do, or not do anything they want. In a world dominated by religious beliefs, an Atheist would stick out like a sore thumb if they lived a life that was in constant conflict with society. Empathy towards others prevents Atheists from living such a life.

  I have always felt that JW's do not celebrate Christmas, for reasons other than it's pagan origins. They attempt to go against the traditions of society, first to provide a witness for their beliefs and second to incite a self induced persecution. The ensuing persecution is then viewed as an indication that their beliefs are correct. Atheists do not need to propagate their beliefs and persecution is not needed as a crutch for their beliefs. In my opinion an Atheist that would live in such a manner would be repulsive.

  Atheists are humans, living in societies that require certain behavior. They have no underlying motivation to act in a manner that would make them feel as if they are unique or righteous. They have nothing to prove to themselves or the god(s).

  pseudo
• 

  funkyderek

  Bizarrely, Clash seems to have ignored everything that's been written by atheists in this thread and continued to refer to atheism as if it were a religion, specifically one set up in opposition to Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Being free from religion, I have no need to worry whether some god will be offended if I do something that some would take to be an act of worship of a rival god. I do things that give me pleasure, and don't harm anybody else. If some non-existent god accidentally gets worshipped along the way, then so be it. I really don't give a flying figment...
• 

  COMF

  Christmas violates athiesm!

  No, it doesn't.

  I guess I need the dogma of atheism reproduced here, schlocker. Whip the whole thing out. Where is the creed by which atheists swear off taking part in Christian celebrations?

  Well, I don't need no priest
  But I love all of the people
  Yes, I share the feast
  Drink up my wine
  Yes, and the song in my bones

  "Follow Me Home" - Dire Straits
• 

  Xander

  AH-HAH!!!

  I see the problem!!!

  Clash has confused ATHEIST with SATANIST!

  Yes, THERE is the issue.....

  A SATANIST believes there IS god, and every action is done to oppose him.

  An ATHEIST does not believe in god, and thus, does not measure his actions as to whether or not they have anything to do with your invisible friend.

  A SATANIST should not celebrate christmas, since he DOES believe god/christ exists, and opposes them, celebrating the birth of christ would be hypocritical.

  An ATHEIST can celebrate christmas or not, it's up to him. Nothing of importance happened on that day in history to the atheist, nor is associated with that day, so whether he celebrates or not is strictly based on whether he wants to participate in the secular holiday or not.

  See, the difference is, a SATANIST cares and opposes what a christian thinks, and ATHEIST does not. That Easter is a celebrated as a religious holiday is significant to you and the SATANIST, but matters not at all to the ATHEIST.

  AND, HERE IS THE KEY:

  If an ATHEIST is deciding whether or not to celebrate a holiday, ALL HE IS CONSIDERING is whether or not he wants to enjoy the festivities and social gatherings or events associated with it or not. NOTHING MORE OR LESS. That the holiday may (or may not) have any religious significance to christians, hindus, buddhists, pagans, jews, or muslims doesn't even factor into his decision in ANY WAY.

  IOW, an ATHEIST 'lives his belief' (using your term) merely by NOT INCLUDING 'GOD' IN HIS DECISION AT ALL.

  A SATANIST, on the other hand, in deciding whether or not to celebrate a holiday, HAS TO CONSIDER whether or not god is involved, and how. Then, he decides whether he should celebrate the holiday as it is, or have a special version of the holiday to oppose god.

  IOW, A SATANIST 'lives his belief' by ACCEPTING GOD AS REAL AND FACTORING THAT IN HIS DECISION.
• 

  Skeptic

  Aztec has made many good points here. Especially her views on the consumerist holiday and the Winter Solstice.

  BTW, I love the humor in this thread!

  Some of the Christians posting here have no problem taking a pagan holiday and making it a Christian one. But they have a problem with atheists taking a Christian holiday and making it a family holiday. That is not clear thinking.

  It would seem rather silly for an atheist to be singing "Joy to the World" or "Hark the Angels Sing", wouldn't it?

  I have done exaclty that as an atheist. Windrider wanted me to attend a church service with her on Xmas eve, and I gladly did. I got right into it, too. It was wonderful. Stirred up a lot of great emotions.

  Just because someone attends the Memorial at the Kingdom Hall does not mean they share the JW's beliefs.

  Christmas is a tradition in our country, and one I enjoy. To me it is a family time that has its origins back in pagan times. Some of the traditions are religious, some arent. Both are fine with me. Just because I follow some of those traditions does not mean that I have suddenly become a Christian. If it did, then it would mean almost all Christians are really pagans. And the JW numbers are about three times what the WTS presently claims.

  Some day I would love to celebrate the Winter Solstice. I have no idea how it is done, but I would love to do it anyway.

  If I visit a Muslim country, I would love to celebrate Ramadan. I actually considered that even when I was a JW.

  As an atheist, I am free to pick and choose what traditions and customs I want to follow.

  Richard

  Edited by - Skeptic on 17 December 2002 14:28:35
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Funky naive about the philosophical commitment of worldviews writes:

  Bizarrely, Clash seems to have ignored everything that's been written by atheists in this thread and continued to refer to atheism as if it were a religion, specifically one set up in opposition to Christianity.

  Atheism presents a worldview, a worldview with religious conciseness. Just because one does not believe in a god does not mean that he exercises some form of religious ethics. Ones ethics is derived from metaphysics. Worldviews consists of three points of philosophy.

  1. Epistemology
  2. Metaphysics
  3. Ethics

  Look at the antithesis. The Christian claims that there is the one true God Jehovah. The atheist claims the opposite that there is no God. So that your own worldview that you claim is set up in opposition to Christianity as you put it. Just a bit of advice if you want to come off as a thinking atheist you need to speak and think consistently as an atheist.

  Funky writes:

  I have no need to worry whether some god will be offended

  If that where truly the case you wouldnt bother responding in such a rigorous fashion as you do. But as scripture explains your character you are a truth suppresser, and my guess that you are terrified of the God of the bible because of the knowledge of your guilt and sin before him and are in terror of his just and righteous judgment against you.

  Aztec asks

  Should Christians celebrate the Winter Solstice?

  Response:

  Christmas has sort of an Eschatological meaning since it fell at the end of the calendar year and celebrated the coming of Christ and the meaning was festive since it represented the Victory of Christ over the world hence the end of the old pagan order Winter Solstice and the beginning of the new order and the reign of Christ. The exchange of presents represents the heavenly reward of receiving our inheritance as sons and daughters of the living God. Because of the victory of Christ Christmas has a festive and joyful atmosphere and was a welcome replacement to the monotonous drudgery and misery of the annual Winter Solstice observance which is a kin to the likes of weekly public talks and service meetings at the kingdom hall.

  In Response of his own inconsistency COMF writes:

  No, it doesn't. I guess I need the dogma of atheism reproduced here, schlocker. Whip the whole thing out. Where is the creed by which atheists swear off taking part in Christian celebrations?

  Your dogmatism that there is no god is a creed in itself, that is a statement of metaphysics that is a part of your worldview belief system.

  When you celebrate Christmas you acknowlage the Christian God you are working so hard at denying

  Cheers,

  jr

  Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 18 December 2002 4:36:52