Dearest Donkey, peace to you and you are quite welcome. I would like to continue this discussion, if I may. Thank you. You said:
Well, lets try and put ourselves in Gods place:
And perhaps herein is where the TRUE problem lies: you CANT put yourself in Gods place, any more than a man can put himself in a womans place a seeing man in a blind mans place a dog in a cats place... But, well, thats earthling man always trying to put himself in Gods place by trying to put Gods thoughts into his own perspective rather than putting his thoughts into Gods perspective.
God can see everything going on, has enough power to stop the torture and abuse for the kids in the story, and God is love".
Yes, to all three. Now, for your analogy okay, you teach son to use mower ummmm, properly, yes? In fact, you even leave him a written copy of the safety rules and tell him to read them. Okay, good start. But then your analogy fails, at least in trying to use it with reference to God. Why? Because you say:
If you return and find that your son is not doing the job properly and is ignoring the safety rules are you going to "allow him the free will" and decide "he has to see why my way is the best way"? What if your son gets his hand caught under the lawn mower and is being mulched into little pieces, while screaming? Are you going to say: "you had free will, kiddo! I am going to leave you under the lawn mower so that your siblings can see what happens when my way is not followed"? Would you leave your kid under the lawnmower to die? Well in the analogy, mankind is the kid and God is the adult.
Whats the problem? Well, this is not an ACCURATE analogy. What is? Your son didnt simply ignore the safety rules: he, in fact, chose to ignore them over and over and over again, DESPITE your repeated warnings, even playing around with sticking his hand quite close to the blades, DESPITE seeing what happened to the neighbors kid, etc. You threatened him with taking away the mower. His response? You dont trust me to do it myself. I HEARD what you said; now leave me alone and let me mow it MY way. What do you do? Take the mower away, of course. But what if your son said over and over and over again, Okay, Pop, I hear you. I wont do it again, I promise. Let me do it; let me SHOW you I can be trusted.
And once again, as soon as you turn your back he goes right back to playing around with the blades? Can you truly say he didnt know any better? And when his hand finally gets chopped off, can the neighbors say it was YOUR fault, that you didnt teach him properly? But when you asked him, he ASSURED you that he knew the rules, in fact he could recite them for you backwards and forwards. But he CHOOSES not to abide by them! THAT is the accurate analogy, dear one.
I know that believers will try and come back with "the analogy is flawed".
Ummmm... well...
You won't even look at the TRUTH and the reality of the situation.
Truly, I did. But did you? Because if you really think about it, is your analogy the TRUTH and reality of the situation? Isnt the truth and reality that the one I was permitted to give you is in fact more accurate?
If there is a God who is love (1 John 4:8) he would not allow this stuff to go on - just to show us that we have free will and that his way of doing things is the best. If a parent actually did as the parent in my analogy did everyone would be saying "what a sick egotistical bastard". That father deserves to be shot.
God is love and it is His hands off approach that proves such: He is giving us what WE asked for. The same as any parent today, who has a rebellious child would do: sooner or later you just gotta LET GO and let your child learn from the school of hard knocks. For some parents, theres nothing you can do. Because at some point, that child IS an adult with free will. Unfortunately, some children NEVER learn and carry their failure over to the detriment of others. Think delinquent: their acts dont usually affect only them, do they? At what point do we stop blaming the parent and start blaming the child?
You have 3 choices:
1. Go on making excuses for the lack of intervention on the part of God
2. Hold God accountable
3. Figure out if God exists at all....once you decide to look objectively (I mean objectively with no pre-disposed bias to make excuses for the flaws in what you believe) you will see reality. You will also for the first time in your life experience two things: real freedom and also a sense of emptiness.
Well, for choice #1, God does not need me to make excuses for Him. But if simply stating the truth translates to an excuse to you I dont know what I can do about that. Note, sometimes the truth is thought to be an excuse (WHY did you do it, Billy? Well, because)
Regarding choice #2, I have to point out your error here: WE cannot hold God accountable. You can hold accountable someone that has some authority higher than him/it, which authority can punish or exact restitution from such one. And since there is no one higher, nor any who can either punish God or demand restitution from Him your choice is invalid. However, God DOES have authority over earthling man and thus He can and will call for an accounting. Sorry, but that IS the truth like it or not.
As for choice #3 I have personally have no pre-disposed bias for God as I know Him NOW by means of knowing Christ is NOTHING like earthling man has made Him out to be, particularly the false prophets of the WTBTS. And it is in knowing Him that I DO in fact know real freedom: I have the FREEDOM to love whomever I wish and myself without hesitation. I dont have to worry that my love and/or concern for another individual because of THEIR relationship with God or lack thereof has ANYTHING at all do with MY relationship with Him. I can help whom I want HOW I want whether they are known to me or not. For I can even love my enemy, regardless of whom earthling man may consider that to be and how he (earthling man) might feel about my doing so. Does that leave me feeling empty? Oh, my dear one, no nonononononono. For since having received the spirit of God, holy spirit, by means of which God and Christ now dwell IN me (Romans 8:9-11; John 14:23) have made their abode WITH me I am FILLED.
Again, I bid you peace.
Ahhh, now, dearest Reborn again, peace to you!
Bottom line: When innocent children are molested, tortured, and murdered, an all-powerful deity who is the perfect manifestation of love does not intervene and prevent or stop such suffering.
And what would you have Him do, Reborn? And at what point? Tell me, please. Tell Him. Hes listening. If you are right and He is wrong tell Him just what it is that you would have Him do.
When a believe replies with "which God?" it is a diversionary tactic in an attempt to cast blame away from the particular God they worship.
Not diversionary, and not a tactic. It was a valid question, to which, I might point out no one replied. As for attempting to cast blame away, I have in fact given you the reasons why my Father has not acted. Several reasons. Several valid reasons. If you are unwilling to accept such reasons, then what? Should I change the reasoning to suit you? But then, that would not be the TRUTH, would it, but simply a means for tickling you ears. Havent you had enough of THAT already?
Fortune 500 Companies are green with envy over such public relations representatives who work for free and act on things unseen (faith) If something good happens, praise God, if something bad happens, divert blame (must be some other God or he wasn't obligated to act in this particular case)
I wouldnt know what Fortune 500 get envious over, truly; I also wish you to know that neither is the case when it comes to those things that YOU might consider good as well as what you consider diverting blame. God is not dealing with what you all believe He is what earthling man has told you He is. He is dealing with His people Israel (not Israel that is of the flesh, per se, but that which has shown itself to be Israel, by means of having His law written on their hearts). But for SOME reason, you have a bit of a time grasping that. And why is that? Because you are angry. And anger always always puts a veil over sight, so as not to see clearly. Always.
Bottom line: Basically all cultures and religions believe in the same premise that an omnipotent, omniscient God exists.
Ummmm. methinks you err here, RB truly...
Beliefs vary a bit but all still believe in one God who created all things and is all powerful.
Again, I think you are in error, truly, but what do I know?
When you start resorting to semantics such as "which God" then you are getting desperate.
We addressed that desperate thing in the previous post
When Islamic children are beaten and mutilated for no good reason then Allah is accountable?
I dont know IS he? If not, why not?
Or if it was a JDub kid then Jehovah is accountable?
You tell me. Cause like I said, Im not sure WHICH god youre blaming here.
Are you then trying to say that all these Gods actually exist?
Their followers certainly believe they do, dont they? As well as make it CLEAR that one is not the other, yes?
Then you are a multitheist and guilty of blasphemy for acknowledging other Gods and not giving yours exclusive devotion.
Youre trippin, RB. First, even MY God says, through His Son, my Lord there are many gods. Satan... is a god (of this system of things). Baal was/is a god. As are Allah, Buddha, etc., etc. Now, whether they are 'real' or TRUE is another story and my Father has no problem with me acknowledging that there are those CALLED god(s) by others. So, c alm down, please and get a grip. Oh, and find out what blasphemy is before you go around accusing folks of it. For it is a VERY serious matter and accusation.
Or are you just crying out "which God" because surely YOURS the "only true God" cannot be responsible.
Well, no, thats not why, but it is true. Now, whether I can convince you of that is another story. I dont think I can nor it is my job to do so. The ONLY way that you would know is to KNOW the Truth (John 14:6) just as I do and have that One set you free, just as he released me. (John 8:32, 36) But simply me telling you: when has Israel EVER truly listened to those sent to her? I am not concerned over your lack of faith, RB. That is a problem for you and my Lord to work out. Truly.
It has to be someone else's fault.
Surely. Say, how 'bout... ummmm the person(s) who commit the wrong act(s)? You think it might be his/her/their fault? I do but then, what do I know, right?
Do you really expect me or any rationally-thinking person to believe that if the child called out "Jah Miscajah save me!" (thereby calling out the correct name of the God you worship) instead of "Allah" or "Jah", etc. fire and brimstone would part the heavens and something would happen?
Er?! Fire and brimstone part the heavens? Uhhhhh no, I think not. But would it need to? As for something would happen, I have to say, absolutely. As to WHAT would happen, I cannot say, for it is not my call, is it?
It would truly make a difference?
Believe it or not, it would. Its has to do with that calling on the name of JAH and getting away safe thing.
Or is God so vain so as to say he or she did not call me by the right name, let them die.
Well, skirting the FACT that if He chose to be "vain", He could be (but, He's not... so, that's not an issue...), I have to point out that you... like many others... assume that God is sitting there, chin in hand watching each and every act we do. Actually, others are doing that... and writing it down (remember the "secretary 's inkhorn"? Remember the "Book of Life" and "Lamb's Book?" Sure you do! I do know, however, that whenHe hears His name He responds. Just l ike you tend to do when you hear yours.
Or how about why your God didn't use enough foresight to see to it his creation was properly instructed what the right name is?
Oh, hold on there, Tonto! May I refer you to Jeremiah 8:8, please? Read that, and then get back to me on who did and didnt do what.
Instead.. thousands of years of bloodshed and confusion because everyone thinks they, their book (be it Bible, Koran, etc) and they alone are right.
And you don't think YOU are? When you look up "blasphemy", look up "hypocrite," too, K?
You go on making excuses for the lack of intervention on the part of God.
No, I am just trying to stand in the gap and respond to false accusations made against someone I love and KNOW... someone near and dear to me. I would do it for you, too, had I knowledge that you were being falsely accused. I promise you, I would.
God allegedly created humankind.
God created one man... and one woman. And lo ok what they did... and look what one of the sons THEY "created" did to his own brother. Tell me... God warned Cain: why didn't Adam? Eve?
To sit by idly and NOT act when one has the ability to prevent such suffering is reprehensible and disgusting.
Tell that to the neighbors, teachers, relatives, friends, mother of the children in the article that evoked this discussion. Oh, yes, thats right we arent even considering them, are we?
Even imperfect humans have more compassion than that.
Just which " imperfect humans" are you referring to, RB? The father? The neighbors? Teachers? Relatives, friends, mother? who know when children are abused but remain silent? You want us to believe they... these "imperfect humans"... had/have more compassion? Truly?
Or is God showing favoritism according to your beliefs because he chose to form a covenant in your behalf and is obligated to act for you but not for the thousands of kids who die every year?
How many children do you have, RB? One? Two? None? Okay, lets say you have ummmm, three. How many are you obligated to act for? WHY are you obligated to act for them? Why aren't you OBLIGATED to act for my children? How 'bout the children in Afghanistan? Palestine? Israel?
AGuest, I never ran out of rebuttal for your foolish logic. I simply out of respect and being asked not to pursue it ceased replying to your nonsense.
Okay. If you say so, it must be true. I apologize if I pegged you wrong, truly.
Believers like you who make excuses over and over again for God when the crux of the matter is the alleged Supreme Being who is responsible for creating all things is apathetic enough to sit by idly while dying children call out for aid. That is not wanting intervention? Your kidding yourself.
Im not sure what youre point is, here... exactly...
You don't understand that. Instead you state that children being mutilated either do not want intervention or God is not obligated to act on their behalf because he has not formed a covenant with them, but conveniently he has formed such a contract with you.
Again, you misstate my words and my point... entirely. I wont try to explain again, then.
You are now on my ignore list.
Rant and rave after this post all you want. Anyone who flails wildly and makes excuses in the face of facts is not worthy of my time. Goodbye.
Rant and rave? Me?! Oh, RB, honey, you dont know me at all: I can count on one hand the times I have raised my voice... in my LIFE... and that last time, literally, was in 1998. And that took a LOT for me to do, I promise you! I remember, because, as I said, it's not something I do. Most times, people ask me to speak up and/or even repeat myself because they say I speak too soft or too low. Im not a ranter or a raver, dear one, truly. I am just speaking what is true. Thats it; thats all. Please don't mistake my caps, etc., for "tone". There is none.
And again, the greatest of peace to you and talk to you soon!
Finally, dearest Expatbrit peace to you, dear one and I absolutely agree with you. Please know that God is not ASKING for the credit you and others speak of. The credit He asks is that when He DOES speak by means of Christ that we tell the TRUTH and say who it is, rather than give such glory to ourselves... or even to others, including other gods. I dont know this stuff, dear one ANY of it. Truly. I know the One who does, however and I hear him. For me to tell you dear folks that it's anything else, or for me to take credit would be absolutely false and misleading. And you all deserve better than that. After all of the lies youve been told by religion and particularly the WTBTS... the LEAST I can do, if I truly owe you love is to also speak truth to you.
Again, I bid you all peace as well as ears to hear.
Your servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
