May you all have peace... and to those of you who had the COURAGE to place the blame where it belongs, on an "earthling" man (and certainly so in this case), may I say "well-done" to you! Now, to respond to those who addressed me, if I may:
Dearest Realist... peace to you!
You asked/stated:
the question is...if this universe is the result of intelligent design then why isn't everything perfect? the fact that the world is less than perfect is the strongest argument against a creator of the universe.
Actually, if you ask any scientist, geologist, geographer, etc., they will in fact tell you that the earth and universe WERE "perfect"... and it is earthling man who has upset that "perfection"... even today. Think "global warming," "endangered species," "delicate ecological balance." Truly, as my Father, JAH, said of earthling man... "the defect... is their own."
Dearest Blueblades... the greatest of peace to you, too!
You stated:
You say your Father is planning to wipe out evil.My question is ,why didn't He wipe it out at the outset, nip it in the bud so to speak and prevented all this horror and suffering.
Perhaps you fail to 'hear' that He did... at least once before on a global scale... and many times thereafter. The problem is not with Him, dear one, but with earthling man... who keeps RESURRECTING evil! God warns... and warns... and warns. Do we 'hear'? Nope. Rather, we cry "foul" when we hear or read that He in fact acted... because such action included children. I mean, THAT would be "nipping it in the bud," w ouldn't it, wiping out "evil" before it even began? And yet, earthling man cries "Foul, God! You've killed innocent people!"
So, I ask you, as I've asked many... none of whom deign to answer, including Mr. Reborn (who I will address in a sec)... at what POINT should my Father intervene? BEFORE the crime is committed? Wouldn't that entail an act against the innocent, which earthling man decries? Or should He wait until an evil act has been done? But then, the harm would have been carried out, yes?
In truth, though... He's done both... neither of which taught earthling man, in general, a thing. So, the NEXT time, it will not be "flesh" that is brought to ruin, for bringing to ruin only the flesh does not solve the problem. No, it is the destruction of the body... AND THE SPIRIT... that must take place... and will take place. Will it be simply folks who err? No, dear one, for God is merciful. It will be those who CANNOT be 'rehabilitated'... who WILL NOT 'repent'... who feel NO remorse over their heinous acts and given the chance, would commit them again... and again... and again.
Without using a belief system of faith, how do you arrive at the existence of God?
Because I have seen... and heard... Him. True, it took faith. But anyone can do it. All one needs is faith... "the size of a mustard seed," which faith, Christ will GIVE to you... if only you ask ("I have faith; help me out where I NEED faith...")
Dear Iwasyoungonce, may you have peace, as well!
Thanks for dropping peace.
You are quite welcome. Thank you for "returning" it.
If "god" can intervine and does not then it is apathetic and not worthy of worship.
Not true, dear one! It is not God who rejects man; it is MAN... who rejects God. He has TOLD us what is "good"... yet, we have told HIM... to stay out of our lives. Repeatedly. The majority responses to this very thread shows that. Would YOU keep intervening where YOU weren't wanted? Truly? What would it take for you to get the POINT... that folks don't WANT to be "bothered" with you? If your friends treated YOU unkindly, spoke unkindly of YOU... they and their children... at what point would YOU say, "Well, okay... have it YOUR way. I won't bother you anymore."
But, you may also say, "What if such friends change their minds?" Well, I think that depends on whether they MANIFEST that change, don't you? I mean, what if they SAY they have, but keep proving to you that they in fact haven't? Wouldn't you at some point leave them be and let them live their own lives... and solve their own problems? I mean, if that's what THEY want? Of course, you would.
If "god" cannot intervine then it is not all powerful and is not worthy of worship.
Can't... and won't... are two entirely different things. Let me ask you, and you tell me: what would be the response of YOUR child if you, say, told him/her, "You know, what you're doing is going to end up in trouble for you." Does every child LISTEN? Are there not some who simply HAVE to learn the "hard" way? Do you, then, as a parent, KEEP pushing... or do you, at some point, stand back and let that child do his or her thing? I mean, if he/she doesn't WANT your intervention... what do you do? What should you do? But, like every LOVING parent, God will let us do our own "will"... and STILL accept us with loving arms when WE wish to "return". He doesn't force/make us... He just lets us know... by means of Christ... that He hasn't left US... but it is we who need to return to HIM.
The way I cope with the barbaric acts some human animals inflict upon one another is maybe "god" expects us to stop them.
Expects us to? No. HOPES we will? Certainly! The entire Law was written on that "hope". Why do you think certain ones were put to death BY their own parents, etc.?
We may be the only "faith" we have but also we may be the only "faith" we need.
Your use of the word "may" denotes to me a measure of uncertainty. IF... we ALL learned to live the Law... LOVE... we wouldn't see what we see today. The lack is not with God, dear one; it is with us.
We need to evolve into beings that believe in ourselves and our own unique abilities to solve our own delemias and stop waiting on a galatic mommie to come solve problems that we create. We can fix them all by ourselves and when we are ready that is what we will do
I'm thinkin' our "track record" shows different. Does that fact that we've wiped out several animal species, and almost wiped out various nations/civilizations lend credence to what we can "fix"?
No one can make a wrong like donkey brought to us right. There is no punishment fitting for the kind of animal that harms a child with unnessesary malice and evil intent. It would be better if that person was never born.
I am not sure I can totally agree with you here. While it is NOT an excuse, usually abuse... begets abuse. Usually... the perpetrator was a victim him/herself at some point. A cycle that's almost never broken. So, who should not have been born first, this particular man... or his abuser? Or the one before that one's abuser? How far back do we go? When his children grow up and become abusers, whose to blame... him... or them? Maybe, then, they shouldn't have been born, either. My point? To SOME extent, we are ALL 'victims'. However, we are also ALL very capable of BREAKING THE CYCLE. To prove it, many of us do! I was abused. Do I want the person(s) that abused me to be dead? No, because they were abused, too. Rather, I would want for these folks to WAKE UP... and see themselves as they saw those who abused them. Truly, there can be no greater punishment than for one to see oneself as one really is! Even death would be more desirable for such one... and many who DO finally 'see' themselves... opt for that, death... at their own hand.
Maybe we can work to be a counter-balance. There is extreame evil in this world. But, there also is alteristic extreame good.
I absolutely agree.
We get to decide where we get into the river of sin. And, we decide what we do in that river.
Funny thing about this statement of yours... the word "decide". I agree with you that the decision is our. Yet, may I ask, who is it that granted such "decision"? ("I put before you blessing... or malediction. Life... or death. Choose for yourselves...")
Unless you are a Jehovah Witness like person then you just sit on the river bank and whine at all the people swimming by; Point out their flaws and ignore their own.
Nahh, first, I break out the crane. 'Cause it truly takes something that big to get the "rafters" outta my eye. But once they're out... am I not obligated to at least try to help my brother get the tiny bit of chaff out his? I mean, especially if he's crying, "I can't see, I can't see!" Or what if he doesn't KNOW he has a bit of chaff, 'cause he's always had it... and so, doesn't know the difference? Do I just go up and start reaching for his eyeball? No, of course not. But... what if he's crying to another, and that One says to me, "Your brother wishes to see. Help him." Now, of course, both that brother and I could say, "But I/he doesn't want your/my help." True. But, I am a servant of someone greater than me. And if that One says to me, "My sheep is blind but wishes to see," who am I to answer back? I simply go. The matter is not mine to decide, truly.
And, finally, dear Reborn ahhhhhh... the GREATEST of peace to you...
Be prepared for verbose, pathetic responses from AGuest
Verbose? Yes, I confess. Pathetic? Perhaps. But I make no claim to superiority, so that would be in the "eye"... of the beholder. But you can count on me to be truthful, and if that doesn't sit well with you... I offer my humblest apologies.
in an attempt to desperately defend her belief in God.
Desperate... hmmm... I dunno. I don't FEEL desperate. Zealous, yes. Protective, perhaps. But, I mean, who wouldn't want to protect their own Father from false accusations, if one's relationship with such father was good?
I should know, I had this very debate with her months ago, and her delusion is brought forth by her very own comments.
That's your opinion, RB... and if I recall... you ran out of rebuttal long before I did.
According to her faith... suffering children have to call out the right name to be saved.
(Why is it that no one blamed "Allah" for 9/11 and the resultant attacks? Why doesn't anyone blame "Allah"... for what happens to the Palenstinian/Israelite children today? Why isn't anyone blaming Vishnu for what happens to children in India? How come no one blamed "Buddha" for what goes on in Asia? Mary, for what happened during the Holocaust? The "Great Spirit" for what happened to Native Americans? The "ancestors" for what happened at Tainemen Square... or South Africa? Where are the "gods" of all these people?)
God is not obligated to intervene on behalf of everyone,
"Choose for yourselves whom you will follow..."
he instead shows favoritism and chooses to form a covenant
See both responses directly above...
with AGuest to use her as his divine mouthpiece to spread his message on JW.com
God has a "mouthpiece," dear RB. And it's not me. We've discussed this, at lenght. I am nothing more than a servant, offering an invitation of behalf of my Master... and telling the truth to those who've been misled. Like yourself. But we've discussed that, too, haven't we?
but not aid children being murdered or tortured.
See LOGICAL question(s) posed above.
probe her a little farther and she'll even resort to saying children WANT to be raped or tortured if God does not intervene
Liar. And I invite folks to read EXACTLY what I said... per your link.
her and I discussed this very same topic before at great length, so please visit: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38186&site=3&page=5
PLEASE do!
here she rants: Actually, MY God did intervene... on my behalf. He has... and still does. Whenever I call on Him to do so. Why? Because I am in a COVENANT where He has obligated Himself to do so! I keep my part; He keeps his. But I cannot see where you... or any others who wrongly accuse Him... show Him OBLIGATED to intervene on behalf of everyone. Love warns, Reborn. It does not necessarily intervene. Ask ANY parent, brother, sister, child, etc. Why? Because intervention is not always WANTED! Israel, whose people MY God are... ASKED to be under domination by man, rather than God. He granted them what they wanted... what they ASKED for. THEY... rejected HIM! Now, as for the people of other 'gods'... I cannot answer. Truly.
Indeed, I said/wrote that very thing. It is the truth.
You, like MANY others... still seem to think that all pedophilia is committed 'against consent'. Well, I am not sure I can agree with you: many parents DO consent, and many children are TAUGHT to consent and so realize nothing "wrong" about it until exposed to a different way of thinking. Now, you and I don't have to LIKE that... but it certainly is the TRUTH.
Indeed, it IS the truth! Do you have ANY idea how many parents are involved in incest, pedophilia... child pornography... child prostitution? No? Why? Because you live a very small part of the world. Tell me, then, if you know... what is the NUMBER ONE money-maker on the Internet? In books? Magazines? Movies? Videos? Why in the WORLD do you think pornography (and particularly "child" porno) makes SO much money? 'Cause no one LIKES it?!
(NOTE: It always amazes me how people hear about something that has been going on almost since time began... like prostitution, pedophilia, pornography... both adult and child... and then go, "GASP! Oh, NO, truly that CAN'T BE! People don't DO things like that!")
GROW UP, RB! Take your head out of the "sand"... and SEE the world... as it truly is!
so be expecting pages and pages of spiritual mumbo-jumbo crap from good ole Shelby.
Okay, okay... I admit it: I can get wordy. I don't deny it.
RB: But, back to this thread
SJ: how is it that you KNOW that He has NOT intervened, that He has NOT heard the cry of the children and made this matter manifest...
RB: Easy. The children told investigators their father pulled out their toe nails with pliers, placed their feet in a burning fireplace, burned them with an iron, hit them with sticks, belts, a hose and a coaxial cable, poked them with a plunger handle, and used a lighter and pliers on their genitals, and God sat by idly and allowed it to happen.
Go back and read my question, RB, which used the word "intervened", versus "prevented," as well as the phrases "heard the cry" and "made... matter manifest." A remedial class in Reading Comprehension 101 wouldn't hurt, either.
He allegedly has the ability to see all things and prevent such atrocities, as you have admitted that he "intervenes" when "obligated", but he instead chose to do nothing, therefore, he did not intervene.
See response above with regard to the use of two different words. Then see Webster's for their respective definitions. No, wait... I'll explain here: to "intervene", RB, would mean to STOP something in progress. Now, go back and re-read my question.
If one possesses the means and opportunity to prevent something from happening, but instead chooses to do nothing, that makes them liable.
Okay, I'm gonna let you in a on a little secret, here, one you continually seem to overlook:
GOD... is not "liable"... to ANYONE. MAN... is the one who is liable... to GOD... and to MAN, by God's decree. Man's LAWS... on which man's liability to man are based... are TAKEN... from GOD'S laws. Since God is the original LAWMAKER... ahhhh, never mind. Methinks I already went way over your head with "God is not liable."
But of course it is more important for him to make a covenant with YOU AGuest so that you may be a "slave of Christ" and spread more rhetoric on a web discussion board.
More important that what, RB? The Covenant is offered to everyone. He'll make it with you, just as well as with me. It's entirely up to YOU, though... to accept the "invitation". Many are invited...
Why blame God? Because he who is silent is always ASSUMED to be "guilty
Yeah, remember Christ before Pilate?
Well at least this time you admit your God is silent. He has been that way for say.. what.. about 2,000 years now outside of stories in a fairy tale book called the Bible?
Oh, I'm sorry... you misunderstood me: my Father is not MUTE. He indeed speaks. I was referring to this particular matter, as I thought you were, too.
After reading that old thread over again, I saw to what great lengths some defenders of the Bible and God go to justify to themselves that they are correct.
I am not a "defender of the Bible," RB, and if you could comprehend what you read, you would know that. But I won't hold it against you. And I don't need to justify God... He can and will justify Himself. I am just doing for Him what I would do for... if someone wrongly accused YOU. Call me crazy, call me desperately... but I'm loyal like that. Why? 'Cause I know what it feels like to be wrongly accused... and have no one step up to the plate. Sucks to high heaven.
Oh, and I am not "correct". Again, if you read my threads... with comprehension... you would know that I myself confess that I don't know this stuff. I just share what I hear from my Lord, is all.
Of course she will respond to this post bidding me peace
Brother... or enemy... I "owe" you love... and peace. And so, yes, my wish for peace toward you remains.
in the name of Jeheshua Miscajah
"JAH.. E.. SHUA... MI...SCHA... JAH..."
and whatever other hallucinations are going on inside her head...
Oh, Lordy, child... except at work, my HEAD... is "empty". It is my HEART'S "abundance"... that speaks. (Whispering - "Reading Comprehension 101...")
after all God chose specifically to forge a covenant with AGuest and speak directly into her head
Neither God nor Christ "dwell" in our heads, dear one. The "Daystar... rises... in [our] HEARTS."
so she must be right.
I am neither "right"... nor "correct"... nor "good". I am a servant, a "dishonorable" vessel... used for an "honorable" purpose. A "good-for-nothing servant," a "foolish" thing... and nothing more. Truly. Truly.
Truly sad and pathetic.
Well, to some... "foolish things" usually are.
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... be upon you, Reborn... and ALL of you... so that you, too, may see the glories I have seen and yet see... and hear the voice that I have heard and yet hear... if truly you so wish it.
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 14 December 2002 7:8:25
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