by joannadandy 64 Replies latest watchtower bible
BALLISTIC wrote: OK, but my God is not just infinately wise but he is infinity itself and therefore perfect. Him knowing everything is simply an intrinsic result of being everything.
JOE ALWARD:
Right. Your god would HAVE to know all of the future. The god of the Bible, however, evidently chose not to know the future.
Sometimes I believe this was part of Gods plan,he new Adam and Eve were going to fall.
Joe: The god of the Bible, however, evidently chose not to know the future.
You may well be right - thanks for this chat.
shera, if that is the God of the Bible then he has some explaning to do.
BLONDIE observed,
"Above is the Calvinism thread. They believe that we are doomed from the moment we are born or blessed because God has foreordained our individual futures. Now isn't that a kicker."
JOE ALWARD responds:
The Bible teaches exactly what the Calvinists believe:
For he chose us in him BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 HE PREDESTINED US to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:4-6, emphasis added)
Thus, Ephesians says that our doom or salvation was sealed at the moment of the creation of the world, so evidently nothing we do can prevent us from being saved if we were destined to be saved, and nothing we do can prevent us from burning in the hellfires of eternal damnation if we were predestined to burn.
Thus, Ephesians says that our doom or salvation was sealed at the moment of the creation of the world, so evidently nothing we do can prevent us from being saved if we were destined to be saved, and nothing we do can prevent us from burning in the hellfires of eternal damnation if we were predestined to burn.
And this is exactly why I said in the "calvanist" thread that it's a great excuse to be the biggest loser you can be.
TR
Like the Trinity, the issues of foreknowledge and predestination has been argued for millenia, and still there is no absolute concensus.
As for me, if God has predestined anyone to burn in hell, then I choose to burn in hell right beside them, because I'll be damned before I ever worship a Father that would condemn his sons or daughters to eternal torment.
Craig
Ballastic I'm with you on this one.
Perhaps my wee human brain cannot comprehend, but it my mind Alpha and Omega includes knowing everything before it happens. I thought this was one of the tennents of God, and something JW's also teach. I don't understand how he can know it all, and yet choose not to watch.
Sorry Joe, but I can't really follow your arguement either. If God knows heart conditions, how does not have the ability to see where those hearts will lead us no matter what.
I am starting to think more and more free will is a sham and cannot exist within the context of Christianity. It just doesn't make sense to me...
JOANNADANDY:
"how does [God] not have the ability to see where those hearts will lead us no matter what?"
JOE ALWARD:
Joanna, the Bible makes it clear that God does have the ability to see the future, but it's not clear that God chose to look into the future. If that is what he has done, then man has no free will.
Hi Joannadandy: I once asked an elder this same question. The scripture at James 1:14,15 reads: "But a person is tempted when he is drawn away and trapped by his own evil desire. Then his evil desire conceives and gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." So, if Satan dwelled on the evil desire to have worship that rightly only belonged to God, wouldn't God have read Satan's thoughts? If God can hear a prayer uttered in our hearts, why wouldn't he have known what Satan was up to when he approached Eve in the garden of Eden? If I personally knew that my children were in danger I would certainly warn them to avoid that danger. And since the future of the entire human race hung in the balance, along with millenia of unparalled human suffering and grief, why didn't God warn Adam and Eve about Satan's evil designs? Then at least they would have been forewarned and would have been able to make a sound decision based on having valuable information. Does this mean that God chose not to know Satan's thoughts? This doesn't make sense to me if we ourselves can't even hide our thoughts from God. Anyone have a solution to this problem? I would like to hear it.
Mr. Shakita
All
The discussion seems to be more about Omniscience rather than Omnipotence. Regardless, it seems to me that you may be overlooking another possibility. That possibility is that none of this is real (read permanent). Have you never had a dream that seemed very, very real? Could it not be that all of this is merely a dream? Could it not be that we are asleep, have never left our home in heaven, and are merely dreaming the dream of separation? A paragraph from the Manual for Teachers in A Course in Miracles puts it this way:
"The world will end in joy, because it is a place of sorrow. When joy has come, the purpose of the world has gone. The world will end in peace, because it is a place of war. When peace has come, what is the purpose of the world? The world will end in laughter, because it is a place of tears. Where there is laughter, who can longer weep? And only complete forgiveness brings all this to bless the world. In blessing it departs, for it will not end as it began. To turn hell into Heaven is the function of God's teachers, for what they teach are lessons in which Heaven is reflected. And now sit down in true humility, and realize that all God would have you do you can do. Do not be arrogant and say you cannot learn His Own curriculum. His Word says otherwise. His Will be done. It cannot be otherwise. And be you thankful it is so."
No one is going to be lost. Joe Alward makes a good point. If God knows it, it must be so. God made us and knows us as perfect, whole, and complete. Nothing can change that although we dream it otherwise.
