Shoot First, Ask Questions Later

by Robdar 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    The Police were right to stop this guy, to search this guy, and to then take him down when he resisted. Cops have to protect themselves, they had reasonable cause for the stop, they had reasonable cause for the seach (self protection). All they did was validated by the resistence of the idiot who ADMITS pulling and pointing the gun.

    If they were right, then why didn't they charge him with a crime, it seems pretty fishy, that they didn't charge him. Usually the only reason they don't charge someone, is because they don't have enough evidence to convict them of a crime. Thusly why did they stop him in the first place. I've personaly seen a copy "beat down" a person, that was in coughs, was not resisting, and was on the ground.

    I fear that many of you running around yelling about the violation of one "right" or another aren't the same folks willing to give your life in defense of those same rights. Work as a soldier or a cop for a few months and I think some of your opinions would change. There really is RIGHT and WRONG in the world, the guy grabbing the cops gun was WRONG! He shouldn't get off on a STUPID technicality.
    Ya the DC sniper was a US Soldier, out of Ft. Lewis, Washington State, look what it taught him. LOL, You really seem deluded, that there can't possibly be bad cops, or bad soldiers. Again where is the proof in this case? He wasn't charged with anything, so it doesn't really give credence to what the cops say happened. BTW Someone on this thread already said they were a cop. I have a good friend that quit being a cop, because they made him stay back, while a woman got raped, instead of interfer, before the rape happened, because they wanted a good conviction.
  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Trauma Hound,

    Here's an educated guess as to why they didn't charge the guy... fear of a law suit by some liberal attorney who thinks that criminals have more rights than victims.

    The DC sniper didn't start sniping people because of his association with the Military, but because of his association with Radical Islam in the US. That and the fact that he's a nut.

    The example you show about the woman and the rape are Prime examples of criminals having more rights than victims.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    Here's an educated guess as to why they didn't charge the guy... fear of a law suit by some liberal attorney who thinks that criminals have more rights than victims.

    The DC sniper didn't start sniping people because of his association with the Military, but because of his association with Radical Islam in the US. That and the fact that he's a nut.

    The example you show about the woman and the rape are Prime examples of criminals having more rights than victims.

    Umm don't you think they give them more lawsuit fodder, without charging him? Come on, that makes absolutely no sense. Well considering the DC Sniper made seargent, how many years was he in the military? Again I think you don't understand there are bad cops, period, hell there's a cop right now, up for murder, for murdering his wife & her boyfriend. It's human nature. What is the rape victim a prime example of that?

  • outoftheorg
    outoftheorg

    Things may have changed, but when I worked in the cop shop we did not have to inform a suspect of his miranda rights until we took them into custody. Before that point they could squeal on themselves and others all they wanted. The use of physical force to get information was forbidden and punishable. But if one has an officer that gets out of control shit happens.

    There are at times situations that develop into a mess even when everyone follows policy. The police world is as fraught with missunderstandings and mistakes as the world in general. Even though a well run department provides all the training and updates and retraining they can.

    There are also departments that are poorly managed and there are some that are corrupt. Just like big business or politics or religion=jw's.

    If the population has a 5% of mentaly disturbed people the cops will have maybe 3% if they do good prescreening if not they will have 5% or more since this trade attracts some of the disturbed.

    My 2 cents Outoftheorg

  • deddaisy
    deddaisy
    Things may have changed, but when I worked in the cop shop we did not have to inform a suspect of his miranda rights until we took them into custody.

    Out, this is my understanding also, there has to be a "custodial interrogation" to initiate Miranda rights. If you notice in the Martinez v. Oxnard, neither Pena nor Salinas, the cops that initially stopped and frisked Martinez, were said to have violated his rights. It was Chavez, the cop that interrogated Martinez that violated his Constitutional rights.

    Kingpawn, While Fox News was discussing Supreme Court hearings, I saw something, just a flash across the bottom of the screen, about the Supreme Court hearing something in regards to aggressive questioning, I just happened to be walking by so didn't really catch it, but it almost seemed that it was not siding with police. I could be wrong, hopefully I'll catch it again. I couldn't find anything regarding the Dec. 4th hearing that the writer talked about. I do remember hearing about the pro-lifers, from last year, I believe that's why Bankruptcy law didn't change like intended last year, the court was busy with the abortion activists issue. (oh, I noticed when I responded to you regarding states retaining power, my post seemed confusing as to whether I was saying what you said was bullshit, or Bush getting involved in Oregon law was bullshit. Just to clarify, I was talking about Bush's actions. That's interesting because it seems he'd have to find some way around the 10th Amendment. I guess I'm a bit behind on current events.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    "Gee ThiChi, the next time there is a speed trap and others have been pulled over for speeding, do you think it is okay for the officers involved to forcibly stop, frisk, wrestle you to the ground,shoot you five times at point-blank range, and then ride in the ambulance with you to the hospital to interrogate and harrass you?"

    Well, if you dont obey their commands, then this is what can happen. If you keep a knife in your pants, then you may have to deal with it.

    Also, he did confirm that he grabbed the cops gun and pointed at them. He stated that he did not know how the fight started. I do know that there are abuses that can occur. The point here is that I do not see the damming evidence that your slanted news story depicts.

  • deddaisy
    deddaisy

    I found a few wires regarding this case. It makes a bit more sense, but each article I read put a different slant on it and it appears that the court was as divided as the posters regarding the issue. Of course I couldn't find the transcript on the December hearing because it has yet to be decided! duh. If I understand correctly, it appears the issue is whether it is a constitutional violation for the police to aggressively interrogate without citing Miranda rights. Or, does it become unconstitutional only if the testimony is used in court. This decision would be important to the Bush Administration due to the fact that the information alleged terrorist connections may provide in an interrogation is more valuable than prosecuting. This is going to be a toughie, IMHO, only because rights can't be taken away from alleged conspirators without being taken away from all of us. And if our rights are protected, so are the terrorists. So, is it unconstitutional to not give Miranda warnings, or is it only unconstitutional to use the testimony in court? (At least that's what I get out of it.) Both lower courts found that Chavez (the interrogater) violated Martinez's rights by interrogating him without Mirandas and should therefore not be protected by qualified immunity. He (Oxnard) appealed to the Supreme Court. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Copyright 2002 Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
    Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
    Knight Ridder Washington Bureau

    December 5, 2002, Thursday

    SECTION: WASHINGTON DATELINE

    KR-ACC-NO: K1962

    LENGTH: 752 words

    HEADLINE: Supreme Court hears case on interrogations limits

    BYLINE: By Shannon McCaffrey

    BODY:
    WASHINGTON _ Supreme Court justices sounded conflicted Wednesday as they wrestled with the question of whether aggressive police interrogations violate the Constitution.

    The case before them involved a California farm worker who was shot five times by a police officer and then aggressively questioned in an emergency room by the officer's supervisor, without being read his rights.

    The shooting left Oliverio Martinez blind and paralyzed below the waist.

    As the justices contemplated whether police abused their authority in questioning a seriously wounded man, some also were thinking about how their ruling might affect counterterrorism investigations. "Suppose this is someone you believe is going to blow up the World Trade," Justice Antonin Scalia asked, hypothetically.

    "You could beat him with a rubber hose?"

    Justice Stephen Breyer wondered why questioning a wounded man in serious pain isn't "the equivalent of beating someone up."

    "What worries me is not so much this case but what we're going to write and the implications," Breyer said.

    Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg asked whether police questioning someone suspected of kidnapping a child who cannot live without receiving medication are entitled to use coercive questioning to find the child.

    The case came before the justices as federal law enforcement agents seek for new ways to gather intelligence from terrorism suspects and associates whom they may have no intention of prosecuting. The court's ruling, expected by June, would apply to questioning of U.S. citizens, not foreign "combatants" like those held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    In the case at hand, two Oxnard, Calif., police officers investigating drug activity stopped Martinez in November 1997. Police say a struggle ensued and Martinez grabbed the gun of one of the officers. The other officer opened fire, shooting Martinez in the head, torso and legs.

    Oxnard police patrol supervisor Sgt. Ben Chavez hopped in the ambulance with Martinez and persisted in questioning him even after medical personnel ordered him to leave the emergency room.

    "I am dying . . .what are you doing to me?" Martinez is heard screaming on a tape Chavez made of the interrogation.

    "If you are going to die tell me what happened," Chavez replied.

    Martinez never was informed of his Miranda rights to remain silent during the 45-minute interrogation and twice asked Chavez to leave him alone.

    Martinez, now 34, never was charged and sued Chavez under the Civil Rights Act, saying his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and his 14th Amendment right to due process had been violated. Chavez argued that as a public official he was immune to such lawsuits.

    But the U.S. District Court for Central California, and later the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, sided with Martinez. On Wednesday, Chavez's lawyer, Lawrence Robbins, acknowledged that the interrogation was coercive.

    "The facts of this case are tragic," Robbins said. But Robbins said that did not mean that Martinez's rights had been violated or, even if they were, that Chavez should be held liable.

    For Chavez to be liable it must be shown that he had violated constitutional rights that had been "clearly established" so that any reasonable police officer would have know the questioning was wrongful, Robbins said.

    Deputy Solicitor General Paul Clement, arguing for the U.S. government in support of Chavez, said the conduct stopped short of "shocking the conscience."

    A ruling for the police in this case could significantly weaken restraints on police interrogations by saying it is permissible to question someone aggressively without a Miranda warning as long as the information is not used in court.

    The high court also heard arguments Wednesday in a case that asked whether federal racketeering laws written to pursue organized crime and corruption can be used against anti-abortion protesters.

    The case has its roots in sometimes violent abortion protests and asks whether abortion opponents engage in extortion when they disrupt activity at clinics. Abortion opponents argue that under that reasoning many political protesters _ including civil rights activists who took part in lunch counter sit-ins _ could also be charged with extortion and in violation of their right to free speech.

    While the case did not deal directly with abortion several dozen protesters from both sides of the heated issue picketed outside the high court.

    ___

    (c) 2002, Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services.

    JOURNAL-CODE: WA

    LOAD-DATE: December 5, 2002

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

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