Shoot First, Ask Questions Later

by Robdar 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    "after a person has been taken into custody or otherwise deprived of his freedom of action in any significant way, unless it demonstrates the use of procedural safeguards effective to secure the Fifth Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination. Pp. 444-491."


    Thanks Borgfree for posting the above site.

    "kept the injured passerby in police custody. Chavez climbed into the ambulance with the paralyzed and blind man and interrogated him for 45 minutes in the ambulance and at the hospital."

    This is obviously a Miranda violation.

    Another thing, if this guy did point a gun at the police officers, why wasn't he been "charged with any crime stemming from the incident."?

    ThiChi, I don't care about your so called humble opion, his story does not "confirm the police version."

    The case for the police officers involved is weak.

    Oliver Martinez was riding his bike down a path when he came upon two police officers questioning another man. The officers ordered Martinez to stop, forcibly stopped him, frisked him, wrestled him to the ground, and then shot him five times at point-blank range.

    Gee ThiChi, the next time there is a speed trap and others have been pulled over for speeding, do you think it is okay for the officers involved to forcibly stop, frisk, wrestle you to the ground,shoot you five times at point-blank range, and then ride in the ambulance with you to the hospital to interrogate and harrass you?

    Rubbish you say? Sure it is....

    Iwasyoungonce: Perhaps the newspaper was bashing your daddy, Bush, but I am not. I don't like Ashcroft but have no problems with the president. I like him, he's a funny dude.

    Edited by - robdar on 6 December 2002 19:14:46

  • Patriot
    Patriot

    There are alot of mistakes that are made when you only have a half-second to decide your fate.

    I dont know what happened here and I dont care.

    Its very easy and "fun" to imagine how terrible and evil some officers can be but the truth of the matter is that a very small percentage really needs to get off the streets.

    It's nice to sit back and get all worked up over how the media portrays certain police stops and how they did'nt follow "proper procedure" and then demand the officers head for not doing so.

    Its nice to live in a place where everyone has the same rights, right? So why when a heroin smoking addict reaches for an officers gun and he defends himself is he not entitled to the same treatment as many here apparently are fighting for when it comes to you local crack addict?

    Police officers can stop anybody at anytime if the find their actions suspicious. The way he walks, how his bike wobbles in and out of the sidewalk, how he is constantly looking at you as he rides by....etc.

    If the stop goes to hell, then it went to hell. It's happend to me before.

    But next time I decide to pause that half second to see if this guy is really going to shoot me and he does....I just hope you guys make a big stink about how I got Iced and how my rights were violated and how I deserved better.

    Mav.-

    A Part Of Died

    By: Harry Koch

    Somebody killed a policeman today

    and a part of America Died

    A piece of our country he swore to protect

    Will be buried with him at his side

    The suspect who shot him will stand up in court

    With counsel demanding his rights

    While a young widowed mother must work for her kids

    And spend alone many lone nights

    The beat that he walked was a battlefield too,

    Just as if he'd gone off to war

    Though the flag of our nation won't fly at half mast

    To his name they will add a gold star

    Yes, somebody killed a policeman today,

    It happened in your town or mine

    While we slept in comfort behind our locked doors,

    A cop put his life on the line

    Now his ghost walks a beat on a dark city street

    And he stands at each new rookies side.

    He answered the call and gave us his all,

    And a part of died.

  • Patriot
    Patriot
    A Part Of Died

    By: Harry Koch

    Somebody killed a policeman today

    and a part of America Died

    A piece of our country he swore to protect

    Will be buried with him at his side

    The suspect who shot him will stand up in court

    With counsel demanding his rights

    While a young widowed mother must work for her kids

    And spend alone many lone nights

    The beat that he walked was a battlefield too,

    Just as if he'd gone off to war

    Though the flag of our nation won't fly at half mast

    To his name they will add a gold star

    Yes, somebody killed a policeman today,

    It happened in your town or mine

    While we slept in comfort behind our locked doors,

    A cop put his life on the line

    Now his ghost walks a beat on a dark city street

    And he stands at each new rookies side.

    He answered the call and gave us his all,

    And a part of died.

  • Iwasyoungonce
    Iwasyoungonce

    "If Bush wins this case, America may plunge into our darkest hour. To paraphrase Sinclair Lewis, "It is happening here." Now is the time to stand up and stop these horrors, before President Bush completes his plan to turn America into a police state, where anyone, anywhere, can be picked up off the street, shot, beaten, questioned without an attorney, and not told why we are in custody." The words of Charles Sheehan-Miles who wrote the peice that I commented about Robdar. I could care less what you think.

    His story is bunk and this is not about the 5th amendement. We will see what the Supreme Court says. Bush is my President not my daddy. I respect him. I doubt anyone but you cares about your opinion about Ashcroft. (Where does that come from?) When you have the responsibility of as many lives he does then maybe I will give your opinions some thought. (not) You believe that we are headed for a police state? These men (police) who you think are thugs are the same ones that put their lives on the line for you and me. I for one say thank you. END COMMENTS

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Iwasyoungonce....do you not understand my comment from page 1? Here it is:

    BTW, I have worn a badge. Yep, I was a Police Officer. I know that things can get out of hand and in the heat of the battle you are not alloted time to second guess what is happening

    So, your opinion as stated means nothing to me.

    You said:

    These men (police) who you think are thugs are the same ones that put their lives on the line for you and me

    I never said that they were thugs. Quote me right if you are going to quote me.

    I could care less about your opinion of my opinions. As a matter of fact, I think what you said applies right back to your opinions:

    When you have the responsibility of as many lives he does then maybe I will give your opinions some thought.

    Give your daddy a kiss for me.

    Edited by - robdar on 6 December 2002 20:27:39

    Edited by - robdar on 6 December 2002 20:31:43

  • deddaisy
    deddaisy

    How in the hell this case ties in with Bush turning the US into a police state is beyond me! Sheehan-Miles certainly did not get that idea from the Martinez case. I'm going to paste the entire case here, emphasis (bolding) mine. Granted, I read it rather quickly, but the only thing I got from it was the clarity of the court's holding that Martinez's rights had indeed been violated. The issue was whether Chavez, as a policman, should be warranted qualified immunity in a civil action! And the court FURTHER HELD that Chavez had indeed went beyond his capacity and VIOLATED MARTINEZ'S RIGHTS and therefore should not be afforded the qualified immunity usually extended to policemen in civil actions concerning incidents which occur while on duty. (Robdar, you are more likely to be familiar with qualified immunity than I). Looks like a petition for writ of certiorari to the U.S. Ct of Appeals was granted in June, and then a motion of the Solicitor General for leave to participate in oral argument as amicus curiae and for divided argument was granted in November. Both motions were Chavez v. Martinez.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ OLIVERIO MARTINEZ, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. CITY OF OXNARD; OXNARD POLICE DEPARTMENT; ART LOPEZ, Chief; MARIA PENA; ANDREW SALINAS; RON ZAVALA, Defendants, and BEN CHAVEZ, Defendant-Appellant.

    No. 00-56520

    UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

    270 F.3d 852; 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 23401; 2001 Cal. Daily Op. Service 9265; 2001 Daily Journal DAR 11637

    June 11, 2001, Argued and Submitted, Pasadena, California
    October 30, 2001, Filed

    SUBSEQUENT HISTORY: [**1] Writ of certiorari granted: Chavez v. Martinez, 2002 U.S. LEXIS 4044 (U.S. June 3, 2002).

    PRIOR HISTORY: Appeal from the United States District Court for the Central District of California. D.C. No. CV-98-09313-FMC. Florence Marie Cooper, District Judge, Presiding.

    DISPOSITION: Affirmed.

    COUNSEL: Alan E. Wisotsky, Oxnard, California, for the defendants-appellant.

    R. Samuel Paz, Los Angeles, California, for the plaintiff-appellee.

    JUDGES: Before: Kim McLane Wardlaw, Richard A. Paez and Richard C. Tallman, Circuit Judges. Opinion by Judge Tallman.

    OPINIONBY: Richard C. Tallman

    OPINION:

    [*854] TALLMAN, Circuit Judge:

    We must determine whether a police officer who conducts a coercive, custodial interrogation of a suspect who is being treated for life-threatening, police-inflicted gunshot wounds may invoke qualified immunity in a civil suit for damages under 42 U.S.C. 1983 (2001). Under the circumstances of this case, we hold he may not.

    I

    On November 28, 1997, police officers Maria Pena and Andrew Salinas were investigating narcotics activity near a vacant lot in a residential area of Oxnard, California. While questioning one individual, they heard a bicycle approaching on the darkened path that traversed the lot. Officer Salinas ordered the rider, Oliverio Martinez, to stop, dismount, spread [**2] his legs, and place his hands behind his head. Martinez complied.

    During a protective pat-down frisk, Officer Salinas discovered a knife in Mr. Martinez's waistband. Officer Salinas alerted his partner and pulled Martinez's hand from behind his head to apply handcuffs. Officer Salinas claims that Martinez pulled away from him. Martinez alleges that he offered no resistance. Either way, Officer Salinas tackled Martinez and a struggle ensued.

    Both officers testified that during the struggle Martinez did not attempt to hit or kick them; Officer Salinas struck the only blow. The officers maintain that Martinez drew Officer Salinas's gun and pointed it at them. Martinez alleges that Officer Salinas began to draw his gun and that Martinez grabbed Officer Salinas's hand to prevent him from doing so.

    All parties agree that Officer Salinas cried out, "He's got my gun." Officer Pena drew her weapon and fired several times. One bullet struck Martinez in the face, damaging his optic nerve and rendering him blind. Another bullet fractured a vertebrae, paralyzing his legs. Three more bullets tore through his leg around the knee joint. The officers then handcuffed Martinez.

    The patrol supervisor, [**3] Sergeant Ben Chavez, arrived on the scene minutes later along with paramedics. While Sergeant Chavez discussed the incident with Officer Salinas, the paramedics removed the handcuffs so they could stabilize Martinez's neck and back and loaded him into the ambulance. Sergeant Chavez rode to the emergency room in the ambulance with Martinez to obtain his version of what had happened.

    As emergency room personnel treated Martinez, Sergeant Chavez began a taped interview. Chavez did not preface his questions by reciting Miranda warnings. The interview lasted 45 minutes. The medical staff asked Chavez to leave the trauma room several times, but the tape shows that he returned and resumed questioning. Chavez turned off the tape recorder each time medical personnel removed [*855] him from the room. The transcript of the recorded conversation totals about ten minutes and provides an incontrovertible account of the interview.

    Sergeant Chavez pressed Martinez with persistent, directed questions regarding the events leading up to the shooting. Most of Martinez's answers were non-responsive. He complained that he was in pain, was choking, could not move his legs, and was dying. He drifted in and [**4] out of consciousness. By the district court's tally, "during the questioning at the hospital, [Martinez] repeatedly begged for treatment; he told [Sergeant Chavez] he believed he was dying eight times; complained that he was in extreme pain on fourteen separate occasions; and twice said he did not want to talk any more." Chavez stopped only when medical personnel moved Martinez out of the emergency room to perform a C.A.T. scan.

    Martinez filed a complaint under 42 U.S.C. 1983 alleging that the officer defendants violated his constitutional rights by stopping him without probable cause, using excessive force, and subjecting him to a coercive interrogation while he was receiving medical care. He moved for summary judgment on each of his claims. The district court denied Sergeant Chavez's defense of qualified immunity and granted summary judgment for Martinez on his claim that Chavez violated his Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment rights by coercing statements from him during medical treatment. n1 In this interlocutory appeal, Chavez argues that the district court erred by holding that he was not entitled to qualified immunity.
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    n1 The district court denied summary judgment on Martinez's claims that he was improperly stopped by the police and that they used excessive force against him. Those claims will be tried to a jury.

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    II

    We have jurisdiction over Sergeant Chavez's interlocutory appeal of the purely legal question whether he is entitled to qualified immunity. Mitchell v. Forsyth, 472 U.S. 511, 528, 86 L. Ed. 2d 411, 105 S. Ct. 2806 (1985). We review de novo the district court's determination on summary judgment that Chavez cannot invoke qualified immunity as a bar to civil litigation. Robinson v. Prunty, 249 F.3d 862, 865-66 (9th Cir. 2001). For the purposes of this interlocutory appeal, we must accept as true the facts alleged by Martinez and determine whether Chavez is nonetheless entitled to qualified immunity as a matter of law. Id. at 866.

    Section 1983 permits an individual whose federal constitutional or statutory rights have been violated by a public official acting under color of state law to sue the official for damages. Public officials are afforded protection, however, "from undue interference with their duties and from potentially disabling threats of liability." Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 806, 73 L. Ed. 2d 396, 102 S. Ct. 2727 (1982). Qualified immunity shields them "from liability for civil damages [**6] insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Id. at 818. Only conduct that an official could not reasonably have believed was legal under settled law falls outside the protective sanctuary of qualified immunity. Hunter v. Bryant, 502 U.S. 224, 227, 116 L. Ed. 2d 589, 112 S. Ct. 534 (1991) (per curiam).

    To determine whether Sergeant Chavez is entitled to qualified immunity, we must first determine whether Martinez has stated a prima facie claim that Chavez [*856] violated one of his constitutional rights. Saucier v. Katz, 533 U.S. 194, 150 L. Ed. 2d 272, 121 S. Ct. 2151, 2155 (2001). If we determine that Martinez has stated a prima facie case, then we must determine whether the right allegedly violated was clearly established by federal law. Id. We hold that Chavez violated the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments by subjecting Martinez to a coercive, custodial interrogation while he received treatment for life-threatening gunshot wounds inflicted by other police officers.
    In Brown v. Mississippi, 297 U.S. 278, 286, 80 L. Ed. 682, 56 S. Ct. 461 (1936), [**7] a unanimous Supreme Court condemned police officers' use of violence to coerce confessions from criminal suspects as "revolting to the sense of justice" embodied in the Constitution. Although the coercive tactics employed by the police in Brown involved physical violence, the Court clarified in subsequent opinions that the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments also proscribe more subtle forms of police coercion. See Haynes v. Washington, 373 U.S. 503, 10 L. Ed. 2d 513, 83 S. Ct. 1336 (1963) (holding that a confession obtained by refusing to let a suspect contact his wife was coercive and, therefore, unconstitutional); Lynumn v. Illinois, 372 U.S. 528, 9 L. Ed. 2d 922, 83 S. Ct. 917 (1963) (holding that a confession obtained by threatening a suspect with the loss of custody of her children was coercive and, therefore, unconstitutional); Ashcraft v. Tennessee, 322 U.S. 143, 88 L. Ed. 1192, 64 S. Ct. 921 (1944) (holding that prolonged interrogation without rest or contact with individuals other than law enforcement officers was coercive and, therefore, unconstitutional). n2

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    n2 Each of these cases holds that a coerced confession violates the Fourteenth Amendment and may therefore not be admitted at trial as evidence. None of them establishes a civil remedy for violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. But see Cooper v. Dupnik, 963 F.2d 1220, 1244-45 (9th Cir. 1992) (en banc), cert. denied, 506 U.S. 953, 121 L. Ed. 2d 332, 113 S. Ct. 407 (1992). Section 1983 requires only that the right, not the remedy, be established. Indeed, Congress's purpose in enacting 1983 was to create a novel civil remedy for violation of established constitutional rights. See Chapman v. Houston Welfare Rights Org., 441 U.S. 600, 617-18, 60 L. Ed. 2d 508, 99 S. Ct. 1905 (1979).

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    [3] Chief Justice Warren observed in Blackburn v. Alabama, 361 U.S. 199, 206, 4 L. Ed. 2d 242, 80 S. Ct. 274 (1960), that "coercion can be mental as well as physical, and . . . the blood of the accused is not the only hallmark of an unconstitutional inquisition."A police officer's extraction of a confession is unconstitutional if, "considering the totality of the circumstances, the [officer] obtained the statement by physical or psychological coercion or by improper inducement so that the suspect's will was overborne." United States v. Coleman, 208 F.3d 786, 791 (9th Cir. 2000) (quotations and citation omitted); see also Withrow v. Williams, 507 U.S. 680, 689, 123 L. Ed. 2d 407, 113 S. Ct. 1745 (1993).

    Martinez argues that, considering the totality of the circumstances, Sergeant Chavez's interrogation was coercive and that it therefore violated the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Chavez's coercive, custodial questioning violated the plaintiff's substantive Fifth Amendment right against compulsory self-incrimination. Cooper, 963 F.2d at 1235. Under Cooper, a Fifth Amendment violation occurs when a [**9] police officer coerces self-incriminating statements from a suspect in custody. Id. at 1236-37, 1242-44. The plaintiff in that case stated a cause of action under 1983 for violation of his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination by alleging that police officers used deception and psychological coercion [*857] to extract statements from him. Id. at 1242-43. Sitting en banc, we held that the officers' conduct violated the Fifth Amendment even though the plaintiff was never prosecuted, noting that the Fifth Amendment's purpose is to prevent coercive interrogation practices that are "destructive of human dignity." Id. at 1239 (quoting Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 457-58, 16 L. Ed. 2d 694, 86 S. Ct. 1602 (1966)). We echoed the Supreme Court's holding in Miranda that this animating purpose was adequately achieved only if the Fifth Amendment cast its protection against coerced self-incrimination not just over the courthouse, but also over the jailhouse, the police station, and other settings in which law enforcement authority was invoked to curtail a criminal suspect's freedom of action in any significant way. 963 F.2d at 1239.

    [5] [**10] Here, as in Cooper, a police officer's conduct "actively compelled and coerced" a plaintiff to utter statements that the plaintiff could reasonably believe might be used in a criminal prosecution or lead to evidence that might be so used. Id. at 1243; see also Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441, 445, 32 L. Ed. 2d 212, 92 S. Ct. 1653 (1972) (holding that the Fifth Amendment "protects against any disclosures which the witness reasonably believes could be used in a criminal prosecution or could lead to other evidence that might be so used"). Even though Martinez's statements were not used against him in a criminal proceeding, Chavez's coercive questioning violated Martinez's Fifth Amendment rights.Cooper, 963 F.2d at 1237; see also California Attorneys for Criminal Justice v. Butts, 195 F.3d 1039, 1047-49 (9th Cir. 2000) (holding that Miranda and its progeny establish clearly and unequivocally that coercive, custodial interrogation violates the Fifth Amendment). n3 We affirm the district court's holding that Officer Chavez cannot invoke qualified immunity as a defense to Martinez's Fifth Amendment claims.
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    n3 We recognize the existence of Supreme Court dicta to the contrary. See United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 264, 108 L. Ed. 2d 222, 110 S. Ct. 1056 (1990) ("The privilege against self-incrimination guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment is a fundamental trial right of criminal defendants. Although conduct by law enforcement officials prior to trial may ultimately impair that right, a constitutional violation occurs only at trial."). Where the two are at odds, however, we are bound to follow our own binding precedent rather than Supreme Court dicta. See Ayala v. United States, 550 F.2d 1196, 1200 (9th Cir. 1977) (holding that Supreme Court dicta is not binding).

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    Likewise, a police officer violates the Fourteenth Amendment when he obtains a confession by coercive conduct, regardless of whether the confession is subsequently used at trial.

    The due process violation caused by coercive behavior of law-enforcement officers in pursuit of a confession is complete with the coercive behavior itself . . . . The actual use or attempted use of that coerced statement in a court of law is not necessary to complete the affront to the Constitution.

    Cooper v. Dupnik, 963 F.2d at 1244-45 (emphasis added). Mr. Martinez has thus stated a prima facie case that Sergeant Chavez violated his Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment rights to be free from police coercion in pursuit of a confession. We must now determine whether the rights that Martinez alleges Chavez violated were clearly established by federal law.

    The contours of the right must be sufficiently clear that a reasonable official would understand that what he is doing violates that right. This is not to say that an official action is protected by qualified immunity unless the very action [*858] in question has been previously held unlawful, but it is to say that in [**12] light of pre-existing law the unlawfulness must be apparent.

    Anderson v. Creighton, 483 U.S. 635, 640, 97 L. Ed. 2d 523, 107 S. Ct. 3034 (1987) (internal citations omitted). We must determine, in other words, whether a reasonable officer in Sergeant Chavez's position would have known that his conduct violated Martinez's Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment rights to be free from coercive interrogation. Because "whether [a] confession was obtained by coercion or improper inducement can be determined only by an examination of all of the attendant circumstances," Haynes, 373 U.S. at 513, our holding will necessarily be a narrow one confined to the specific facts of this case. Nor do we opine on the appropriate measure of damages for such a violation; that is for the jury to decide. See Cooper, 963 F.2d at 1245 ("The fact that [the suspect ]never formally was charged in court and none of his statements ever were offered in evidence to his potential detriment is relevant only to damages, not to whether he has a civil cause of action in the first place.")

    [8] The record before us reveals that Sergeant Chavez doggedly pursued [**13] a statement by Martinez despite being asked to leave the emergency room several times. He ignored Martinez's pleas to withhold questioning until he had received medical treatment. A reasonable officer, questioning a suspect who had been shot five times by the police and then arrested, who had not received Miranda warnings, and who was receiving medical treatment for excruciating, life-threatening injuries that sporadically caused him to lose consciousness, would have known that persistent interrogation of the suspect despite repeated requests to stop violated the suspect's Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment right to be free from coercive interrogation.
    The Supreme Court held a virtually indistinguishable interrogation unconstitutional in Mincey v. Arizona:

    [The officer] ceased the interrogation only during intervals when [the suspect] lost consciousness or received medical treatment, and after each such interruption returned relentlessly to his task. The statements at issue were thus the result of virtually continuous questioning of a seriously and painfully wounded man on the edge of consciousness.

    437 U.S. 385, 401, 57 L. Ed. 2d 290, 98 S. Ct. 2408, 1978 U.S. LEXIS 115 (1978); but cf. United States v. George, 987 F.2d 1428, 1430-31 (9th Cir. 1993) [**14] (holding that interrogation in the hospital of a coherent suspect who has received Miranda warnings is not unconstitutional); United States v. Lewis, 833 F.2d 1380, 1384 (9th Cir. 1987) (holding voluntary a statement elicited from a suspect just after she returned from surgery and emerged from the effects of general anesthetic where the suspect was alert, responsive, and unresisting).

    To the extent Sergeant Chavez's conduct differs from that of the officers in Mincey, it is more egregious. Sergeant Chavez did not read Martinez his Miranda warnings. See Davis v. North Carolina, 384 U.S. 737, 740, 16 L. Ed. 2d 895, 86 S. Ct. 1761 (1966) ("That a defendant was not advised of his right to remain silent or of his right respecting counsel at the outset of interrogation . . . is a significant factor in considering the voluntariness of statements later made."); Miranda, 384 U.S. at 467 ("Without proper safeguards the process of in-custody interrogation . . . contains inherently compelling pressures which work to undermine the individual's will to resist and to compel him to speak where he would not otherwise do so freely."). Chavez [**15] persisted in questioning Martinez during, not after, medical treatment. [*859] Although Martinez did not, like Mincey, affirmatively request counsel, he repeatedly requested that Sergeant Chavez refrain from interviewing him until his medical treatment was complete and his life was no longer in danger.

    In light of the extreme circumstances in this case, a reasonable police officer in Sergeant Chavez's position could not have believed that the interrogation of suspect Martinez comported with the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Accordingly, the district court did not err by holding that on these facts qualified immunity was not available to Chavez to insulate him from Martinez's civil rights suit for damages.
    AFFIRMED.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    edited to add: To attempt to prove that Bush has some dark plan to take constitutional rights away from US residents by citing this case is utter bullshit.

    Edited by - deddaisy on 6 December 2002 22:49:49

  • Kingpawn
    Kingpawn

    Deddaisy,

    While this case may not make proof the Bush Administration is trying to turn America into a police state, it can be one more brick in the road leading to that end.

    We've seen a steady erosion in civil rights post 9/11. Military tribunals, where verdicts need not be unanimous, and some procedural safeguards given in civilian trials are lacking. Detention of "enemy combatants" for long periods before trial (violates the Fifth or Sixth Amendment protections against long delays before trial as I recall); attorney-client privilege was already weaker for those in prisons (might be helping plan an escape), and now with "terrorists" (I'll return to this in a bit) since they might be helping plan another attack....

    Ashcroft has announced revival of COINTELPRO, an outfit active from 1957-71. It spied on a number of religious, civil-rights, and antiwar groups. Sometimes via faked internal messages the group's activities were disrupted. It was denounced in 1975 for its civil liberties abuses. Nat Hentoff, in a column titled "Who's that knocking at my door?" noted they won't have to observe Justice Dept. rules about probable cause when spying on such groups.

    In the same column, he noted instances of people receiving visits from FBI agents after being ratted out by people for the sin of criticizing the President, or Administrstion policy, for examples. If not now, incidents like this will more and more create the same attitude toward law enforcement that other people have for the KGB, Gestapo, SAVAK (Iranian secret police), the DGI (Cuba's) etc.

    The Bush Administration has also, through the Justice Dept., warred against Oregon's assisted-suicide law. WTF? Wasn't that a legitimate issue for the people of Oregon to decide? Since when does a political philosophy so supportive of "state's rights" go to court to block a state initiative? Oh, but silly me, I forgot the 2000 election, when the "pro-state's rights" Supreme Court nullified the will of Florida voters! And conservatives, those advocates of smaller government, voting in favor of measures to censor the Internet like the Communications Decency Act of 1996 et al.

    Ironically, another case the Supreme Court will hear this term considers whether RICO (an antiracketeering statute designed for use against the Mafia) can still be used against antiabortion protestors. Many abortion-rights activists are siding with the pro-lifers, correctly recognizing that if it can be done to you it can be done to me.

    And what's a "terrorist?" Anyone the government says is one. For instance, after the Bushies are gone these laws will still be on the books. I can see where Operation Rescue will be treated in the same way as al-Queda cells. Their assets frozen, property seized, and maybe tax audits, harassment, and a campaign of slander against them, groups like them--and their financial supporters. Imagine a 2000's version of Dick Tuck, the Democratic "dirty trickster" who was far better at harassing the Republicans before the `72 election then Donald Segretti ever was against the Democrats (Nixon made a reference to him on the Watergate tapes), turned loose on Operation Rescue. Or a character I've heard of known as "Tommy the Trucker," an FBI agent and agent provocateur, wreaking havoc among the New Left in the `60's, now doing it against the Right--because of their politics.

    Perhaps it's more accurate to say there's a group of narrow-minded prigs here that want to make us either a police or a theocratic state. For instance, the Religious Liberty Protection Act. One of its provisions would allow landlords to refuse to rent to people who's lifestyle goes against the landlord's religious convictions, effectively vetoing housing civil rights laws.

    In the above case, I'd love to see "Christians" booted out on their butts because their landlord is a Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/pagan/other/agnostic/atheist and his tenant's beliefs honestly violated his religious principles.

    The sword cuts both ways.

  • deddaisy
    deddaisy

    kingpawn,

    my vampire bud.....I am not exactly a Bush fan, but even less of a Gore fan. I made my comment not to take a stand for Bush, but only to state that for this writer to cite, or tie this particular case in with the idea of Bush's dark agenda, was definitely in err. I saw just the opposite in this case. If anything, this case was about qualified immunity, and if the writer had a problem with that he should have come out and said so. But it appeared, to me at least, that he beat around some bush. Really, you made a better point than he. If he had some information which confirmed the point that he attempted to make he surely neglected to use it.

    Personally, I trust none of the politicians, but I suppose Bush is just as good as the next. I'm not registered to vote in the states so I suppose I can't complain. I would have to do some reading in order to agree or disagree with you concerning your view. I do agree that as much as I tend to lean toward the Republican view, this:

    The Bush Administration has also, through the Justice Dept., warred against Oregon's assisted-suicide law. WTF?

    is bullshit. I believe it's the Tenth (?) Amendment that states that the powers not delegated to the US by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. I can see where the assisted-suicide law would be comparable to opening a can of worms, "oh yes your honour, he wanted me to suffocate him!," but I believe the Constitution is clear in its standing of power delegated to the states.

    so, Kingpawn, I didn't realize vampires were so politically aware, I told you those third-shifters were "interesting" people. So I will brush up and catch up with you, just please know that I was attempting to point out the writer's weakness, not any weaknesses of the posters.

    the sun is gone, even the damn mosquitoes are frozen

    peace, christina

    Edited by - deddaisy on 8 December 2002 2:26:4

  • animal
    animal

    We tell our guys, on motorcycles, that when they are pulled over on a traffic stop to do 2 things....

    1. Put their hands up high in the air.
    2. Keep their mouths shut.

    We have guys doing civil disobedience all over the USA, mostly helmet violations, and we do not want to give the courts or police one grain of help in the court case to follow.

    No one HAS to speak to a policeman, ever. You may have to show some paperwork, but you never have to speak. They can try to arrest you to force you to speak, but they wont. If more people did this, maybe things would change.

    Animal

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    The Police were right to stop this guy, to search this guy, and to then take him down when he resisted. Cops have to protect themselves, they had reasonable cause for the stop, they had reasonable cause for the seach (self protection). All they did was validated by the resistence of the idiot who ADMITS pulling and pointing the gun. Mirandized or not the guy knew his rights.

    I kinda like Germany where Police Brutality Laws don't exist. German cops are REAL NICe up to the point where you resist, then YA GET THE BEAT DOWN. Too many punks think it's ok to challenge authority and even do physical violence to law enforcement officials. I think everyone who runs from the cops should get 10 years in prison AUTOMATICALLY.

    Miranda has too often been used in cases where it didn't really apply. If, as was supposed by RO that most people already know the familiar "Miranda Rights" then a simple failure of a cop to mention them should NOT make statments by these nut cases ineligible as court evidence.

    I fear that many of you running around yelling about the violation of one "right" or another aren't the same folks willing to give your life in defense of those same rights. Work as a soldier or a cop for a few months and I think some of your opinions would change. There really is RIGHT and WRONG in the world, the guy grabbing the cops gun was WRONG! He shouldn't get off on a STUPID technicality.

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 8 December 2002 12:59:13

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