Calvinism

by Calvinist02 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Satanus

  1. Total Depravity- All men are sinners. We are totally corrupt and wicked. Our hearts are deceitful above all else. We are dead in our sins. We cannot seek or choose God in our sins.

  (Romans 3:23; Romans 3:10-14; Jer. 17:9; Ephesians 2:1; Romans 3:12; Romans 8:8)

  This doctrine, to those who accept it, causes them to deny parts of themselves, leading to dissociation, integrity blown to smitherines. Mental problems can easily follow. What also follows is the attempt to punish others who wish to live naturally, with integrity.

  This doctrine, in those that believe it, does them a serious injustice. It renders the human race to a level lower than animals, for animals are claimed to be sinless, doing only what god intended for them. Yet, humans are proven to be genetically, 95-98% animal.

  SS
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  Satanus

  Calvin's dogmas, though reflecting a heroic effort and great intellect, are just another attempt at making sense out of the nonsensical.

  SS
• 

  Sangdigger

  Psalm 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou chooses and causes to approach unto thee" A Soveriegn grace preacher once said, "Knowing what you know now, and where you are (trusting in Christ) if you could go back and change one thing about your life, you wouldnt change one thing" this is because we know that all things are working together for good to them who love God and are the called according to his purpose. Rom.8:29

  Someone asked earlier on this post "How can i know if i am in?, or if God chose me? My anwser to that would be to look at your life. If you came out of a destructive cult like the JW's, but have not given up on the bible, and trust Jesus as Gods only provision for salvation, and have a thirst for the truth in scripture, then i'd say there's a good chance your where you are because of Gods calling.

  Remember the story of Joseph? When confronting his brothers years later, who had sold him into slavery, he told them that they had meant it for evil, but God had meant it for good. Gen. 45:5-8 He said it was not you who sent me here, but God. Then look at the whole picture, Joseph was put in a very high position, and was put in charge of all of the food in egypt, when the famine came, he was in the right place to take care of his family, and this caused Jacob and the family to move to egypt, setting up the start of the Isrealite nation and thier foretold bondage. Here we have God working all things after the counsil of his own will. His very name=Yaweh="he causes to be"

  As far as election is concerned, to me it is a very comforting doctrine. If God be for you, who can be againts you? (Rom 8:31) As Swedish chef pointed out, NONE is righteous, NO NOT ONE. Then clearly NO ONE from Gods Holy standpoint deserves to be saved. We not only died physically from Adams fall, we died SPIRITUALLY that is why scripture uses the word DEAD over and over to describe our condition. A dead man has no life, no ability to come to God left to his or her self. Eph.2:1

  In the Garden, God told Adam, "In THE DAY that you eat thereof, you shall DIE. So Adam not only died later physically, but died that very day spiritually.

  All of those chosen by God were Redeemed by Christ on Cavalry, and eventually, one by one called by God by the means he ordained= the preaching of the Gospel. 1Cor. 1:21, 2Tim 1:9

  As far as John 3:16 "For God so loved the world" Here is used the greek word kosmos. This denotes "Arrangement, beauty, world" The greek word for habitable earth is "tebel" or for Land, earth, "erets" The greek word "kosmos" wich is used in Jn.3:16 can also be used of ungodly people. John 15:18 "If the world hates you....." John 14:19 "A little while, and the world seeth me no more....." Another greek word used for world is "oikoumene" meaning habitable earth, land. Luke 2:1 "A decree went out that all the world should be taxed" and Acts 17:6 "These that have turned the world upside down..." Basically the word "world" denotes a whole lot of folks.

  Jesus makes it plain that he loved the sheep, and came to save them. In John 17:9 he says "I pray for them: I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." If Jesus came to die for all men everywhere, the entire world, why would he ever make a statement like that?

  To sum it up, in my opinion, the five basic doctrines of calvinism harmonize with scripture unbelievably well, and together, fit like a glove, and compliment one another. But this does not dissolve man of his responsibility. God commands all men everywhere to repent. The invitation is open to all who will come and drink of lifes water. However, only the elect will come. A man once asked Charles Spurgeon, a famous nineteenth century sovereign grace preacher if he could tell if someone was elect. He commented that if God put a yellow streak down every elect persons back, it would be a simple matter of raising someones shirt tails to see, but in heaven on the outside of the door it will read "Anyone who is thirsty, come on in" and on the other side of the door it says "Elected from the foundation of the world"

  Nuff said for now
• 

  Kingpawn

  He predestined His elect to salvation before the foundation of the world.

  This is a doctrine that makes trying to live a life pleasing to God as absolutely useless if you were not "predestined" to grace! You might just as well "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," because no matter you try and live a godly life your time and effort is a waste.

  5. Perseverence of the Saints- True Believers cannot lose their salvation. If God did choose you, then He cannot "un-choose" you. If you did "fall away from the faith" then you were never really in it.

  Flatly contradicts Christ's words in Matt. 12:31, 32, regarding the unforgivable sin. By saying God can't "un-choose" someone, you deny the very soverignty mentioned earlier, when you said God can do what He wants. Which is it? Sounds to me like you're teaching "doctrines of men." (Matt. 15:1-9).

  This "If you did "fall away from the faith" then you were never really in it" is a convenient "out" to explain why someone so zealous years before has cooled since. Maybe they were stumbled by the actions of higher-ups whom God didn't reprove promptly (and therefore, allowed on of His sheep to be stumbled). That's what a loving God does?

  Hobbes is right. We act out of self-interest. The late Lenny Bruce once said we're all as honest as we can afford to be.

  Edited by me to add the last three lines.

  Edited by - Kingpawn on 7 December 2002 6:39:12
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  Sangdigger

  I'd say the fact that God chose to save some when he couldve let the entire human race die out due to Adams fall is an act of Love and Mercy. Do you think you can actually please God by what you do or say? I hope not, or i'd never get to glory. My thought process alone would knock me out of it. Just thinking about fornication for example is the same as commiting it according to Jesus. Thats why Jesus is made FOR US Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. All the things i cant be myself.

  If Gods chosing has nothing to do with our deeds, or anything in us, then why would he unchose us? IF he simply choses us by according to the pleasure of his own will, and his will is unmutable, and he never changes, then we're secure. Jesus himself said no one could pluck them out of his or his fathers hand. I'd say thats pretty secure. Another very important question is WHO GETS THE GLORY? If i get to glory based on my deeds, and being good, then i have something to glory about to God. But if he does all the saving, he gets the glory. Romans 4:2 , 2Cor 10:17 Paul says God forbid i should glory, save in the cross of Christ. ICor 1:29 "That NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE"
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  hooberus

  "To sum it up, in my opinion, the five basic doctrines of calvinism harmonize with scripture unbelievably well, and together, fit like a glove, and compliment one another."

  "3. Limited Atonement- Christ's death was the sacrifice for the elect. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. Jesus died for His sheep (the sheep are describes as the elect in John 10). Jesus' purpose of dying was made- to be the propitiation for sins."

  DOCTRINE # 3. IS UNSCRIPTURAL

  "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:9

  "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." John 2:2

  Edited by - hooberus on 7 December 2002 15:29:21
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  Calvinist02

  Ok, Limited Atonement:

  This has, and probably will always be, a contraversy in Calvinism. I was just telling you what the 5 points were, not saying I believe all of them. I definately believe in 1,2,4,5. Those are completely based upon the scripture. Yet, number 3 has caused me trouble.

  We are horrible sinners. How can you disagree with that? We are not saved by works..why not? Lest anyone should boast. (Eph. 2:9) If salvation were left up to ourselves, everyone would be in hell, getting their just punishment for their own sins. So God chooses on a unconditional election. Not on anything good we've done (cause we've done none), but on His own will. I really don't see anything contriversial about that. If you say that this teaching of men is wrong, then you are saying that the Bible's wrong. It's from the Bible

  (By the way- John Calvin wasn't the founder of Calvinism. Augustine was- it was just later named "Calvinism")
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  Sangdigger

  Doctrine #3 is just as scriptural as the other 4 doctrines. First of all, as you might know, you have to interpret scripture IN LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE.

  hooberus, the first scripture you quoted was Heb. 2:9 "that he should taste death for every man". First of all, notice it doesnt use the word "MEN" but "MAN". But dont stop there. Read on to the very next verse. It says "...in bringing MANY SONS UNTO GLORY....." it doesnt say ALL MEN or ALL SONS. This explains Matt. 1:21 "And thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS."

  Once again, i quote John 17:9 "..I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, BUT FOR THEM WICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME,....." Simply put, to say that Jesus died for all men everywhere is to say he refused to pray for some of them.

  Then you quoted John 2:2 "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Now who was this letter adressed to? And who was John? He was a Jew, and as you know, jews claimed the title of his ELECT nation, the only ones, who by their bloodline would recieve salvation. So when Jesus told Nicademus in John chapter 3 that God so loved the world, this would include more than just Jews. It would include people from all walks of life. The same is being said here. The world not only denotes alot of folks, but Gentiles as well. Non-Jews.

  I believe another way of looking at this particular scripture is this way: Christs shed blood was sufficient enough to cover the world, or all men. But is efficient for Gods elect. Basically, Christs blood will be directly applied to his elect, but was sufficient to cover the entire worlds, should they all repent. But man left to himself will not repent, hence man is responsible for his own sin. But Gods elect will repent in time, because God the holy spirit, quickens them.

  Case in point: The Pharisees and Pilate, and Judas, those who crucified Christ. It had to happen. God didnt simply sit around waiting for someone to get together and betray and kill his son. It was foretold in Psalms 41:9 that one of Jesus own friends would betray him hundreds of years before he even came to earth. He used mans wickedness to accomplish his purpose. Are these men responsible since it was ordained that this should happen, and in a sense were pawns, used by God to accomplish his will? You bet they are. God simply left them to themself, and they followed their natural couse of action.....Wickedness. It was already in their heart. And God used it to accomplish his will.

  "Jacob have i loved, and Esau have i hated" Another classic example of election. Rom.9:11"For the children being not yet born, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLETH" Jacobs very name means "cheat" or "supplanter" God definately did not chose him based on something likeable in him. Paul would have never posed the question in verse 14 of that same chapter if he thought people would take this lying down. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!! For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom i will have mercy"

  All im saying here, is check something out thoroughly, using the whole of scripture before dismissing it as mans doctrine. Mans doctrine almost always glorifies himself. The 5 points of Calvinism give ALL the Glory to God.
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  Calvinist02

  Sangdigger- Great reply. I totally agree it is scripture based. Just want to say thanks and good job!
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  avishai

  1. Total Depravity- All men are sinners. We are totally corrupt and wicked. Our hearts are deceitful above all else. We are dead in our sins. We cannot seek or choose God in our sins.

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  Why the hell would God make people like this? Is this a joke? Oh, wait, religion is the big joke. Including calvinism. Wow. No, I'm not a calvinist. God, how irretrievably stupid do people have to be to believe this crap?