JW's deny jesus as being king before 1914

by heathen 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sangdigger

  heathen,

  Maybe i missed something here, but i did not intend to prove the trinity doctrine by quoting those verses. In fact, if i was going to try and prove the trinity, i probably would not use those verses. However, if i was trying to prove the immortality of the soul, i might use that verse, but in this case, i was responding to the question: Where was Christ immediantly after death? Did he just cease to exist like the Society says, or was he existing in a spirit form.

  Another point to consider is this: Before Jesus came to earth he existed as a spirit. I think most would at least agree to that. So why would it be so difficult for him to go back to being a spirit, once his body was destroyed? I mean, how else could he have said, "I will raise it up again" unless he was involved in doing just that. I dont know how the JW's treat this scripture, if they do at all. I looked up the ressurection in the Reasoning book, but found nothing. Only arguments on Jesus being a spirit AFTER his ressurection. And like i mentioned before, when did he go and preach to the spirits in prison?
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  heathen

  Sangdigger - I found a scripture that pretty much ruins the preaching to spirits in prison theory you have going there Matthew 12:40- jesus says he will be in the heart of the earth for 3 days then be raised up.As far as I can tell he is talking about the grave .So yes I would go with he simply did not exist for 3 days.My arguement was that at the point he returned to heaven and sat at his fathers right hand he was considered to be king of heaven and earth.
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  Sangdigger

  heathen, yes, we did deviate a little from the original post. But let me suggest this to you. You quoted Matt. 12:40 that Christ would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days. His BODY was in the earth. But my point was did he exist in spirit form untill his body was raised up? How else do you explain him saying he would raise himself up? or saying to the Father "into thy hands i commit my spirit".

  On the original point, i believe he immediantly after his bodily ressurection took over the kingdom. Due to verses already quoted. So yes, the WTS is twisting scripture to fit erronious man-made doctrine. I guess the 1914 teaching.

  The other topic of where he was for 3 days actually became somewhat of a debate between me and a friend some time ago. And i think its a good topic.
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  heathen

  Just for the record The current WT teaching on the events of jesus resurection are that , jesus was resurected as a spirit on the third day then he went and raised his own body .As far as I can tell I do have the greatest man book .Personally I don't see that he was instantly resurected to a spirit as you are suggesting .I also notice that the WT does claim that jesus had all authority in heaven and earth prior to his ascention .So that guy at the meating definately commented out his ass even according to the WT teaching on the subject.
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  Sangdigger

  And whats even funnier, is no one else even noticed!!!! LOL
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  Sangdigger

  heathen, are you sure they believe that Jesus as a spirit raised his own body up on the third day?

  I thought they taught his body was disolved by gases or something strange like that. I do know that they believe he was raised a SPIRIT the third day, but they believe he never took a body again. The reasoning book did say he was a spirit, but materialized much like other angels in the past. How do they dodge Jesus telling his apostles " Touch me and see that i have flesh and bones, and am not a spirit as you suppose"??

  One more thing, if they believe that he recieved all power of heaven and earth prior to his accension, or at least at his accension, then when did the 1000 year reign start?
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  heathen

  Sangdigger- like I said the information I found was in the greatest man who ever lived ,They said something like -since jesus had not sinned that his body was an acceptable temple for him to dwell in so he did just that. I do remember hearing some suggest that he merely hid his body so that people wouldn't try to use it in a form of idolotry which of course appears to be contrary to the society explainion . The guy I studied with was an idiot and so are most of the heard.lol As far as the 1000 year reign ,they believe it hasn't started yet and won't start till after armageddon when jesus and the 144 thousand and 12 apostles rule together.They seem to believe that the annointed remnant that are in heaven now are ruling which doesn't make sense at all since they are all to start ruling at the same time as far as i can see in revelation .
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  Sangdigger

  heathen, so they do believe that even though his body was pure enough for his spirit to dwell in it, he still ceased to exist those 3 days? I dont mean to keep harping on the same thing, just tryin to nail down the fact that they believe he did not exist for a period of 48 hours plus. And yet they believe that he was a spirit who inhabited a body he was born with? Man, im confused
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  heathen

  Sangdigger- I have heard the explaination you are giving before and understand that to be a catholic interpretation of events .Are you cotholic ? I'm talking the part about where you believe Jesus went to hell or a prison to soothe the souls of sinners. I really don't get the part where the dub that studied with me totally pulled his explaination out of his ass and at the same time tried to beat me over the head with the concept of loyalty to the society teaching . I tell you what it took this thread and several others for me to realize what I was dealing with cause it brought to mind what was happening around me back several years ago.Very therapeutic I might add lol .These people can be very devious with new studies to a point of apostasy and the complete distruction of thinking for yourself seems to be one of the tools they use. They aren't the only ones who pull this tho .
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  Sangdigger

  heathen, youre absolutely right. They strongly discourage NO INDEPENDANT THINKING. No, im not a Catholic, never have been. In fact the scripture of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison is widely accepted, even by most protestants that he was soothing the spirits of the departed from the flood. I believe this to be an error, and still hold to the angels materializing, and God sending them to Tartarus. The greek word for "preaching" in this verse actually means declaring victory, announcing triumph over death. This seems to fit the WTS teaching at least on this topic. My advise to you is stay in the bible, read it with an open mind. One of the very first things i told myself when i left the organization, was this. If all christian religions claim to get their teachings from the bible, then i should be able to go to the bible, and see it for myself. What i found, was quite a bit different from what i had been told. But i'm still learning, and confident that i will never even know half of what i would like to know. Anyway, Press on!!!! and Pray!!!! So what if the JW's told you wrong, dont give up on God and his word. Godspeed