JW's deny jesus as being king before 1914

by heathen 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • blondie
    blondie

    Craig, I'm sure that is what the WTS says now about Jesus ruling since 33 CE.

    But the 1874 is more tricky because it was that Jesus was king already but had not begun ruling completely until 1914. It is very similar to the concept that Jesus began ruling as king in 1914 but is ruling in the midst of his enemies until Armageddon when he destroys his enemies on earth completely and abysses Satan and the demons for a 1,000 years.

    The then-Bible-Students, ergo Russell, taught that only the governments, financial and religious systems were to be destroyed in 1914 and that the remnant would be taken to heaven to rule with Jesus for a 1,000 years over all humans alive then on earth and the ones to be resurrected (some 50 billion per Russell).

    For that I will have to do a little searching in the older books of Russell unless someone already knows what I am talking about and has a quote from the Studies in the Scriptures.

    Blondie

    A quote for Craig

    *** w94 6/1 29 "Jesus Christ Is Lord"-How and When? ***


    And Jesus Christ has ruled as King of kings and Lord of lords over his congregation since Pentecost 33 C.E. But now, since 1914, he has been given kingly authority to rule in that capacity with his enemies placed as a stool for his feet. The time was now ripe for him to go subduing in the midst of them, all in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1, 2.Hebrews 2:5-8; Revelation 17:14; 19:16.

    Quotes from the WTS that is interesting about the year 1874

    *** w55 1/1 8 Part 1: Early Voices (1870-1878) ***


    "Hence, it was in B.C. 606, that Gods kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606 will end in A.D. 1914, or forty years from 1874; and this forty years upon which we have now entered is to be such a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation. And during this forty years (1874 to 1914), the kingdom of God is to be set up (but not in the flesh, the natural first and afterwards the spiritual), the Jews are to be restored, the Gentile kingdoms broken in pieces like a potters vessel, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ, and the judgment age introduced."Three Worlds or Plan of Redemption, pp. 83, 189.

    *** w55 3/15 173 Part 6: 1914 Date Verified ***


    In view of this strong Bible evidence, Rev. Russell wrote in 1889, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.

    Proclaimers Book pages 631-2 28 Testing and Sifting From Within


    Something else that was seen as a possible time indicator involved the arrangement that God instituted in ancient Israel for a Jubilee, a year of release, every 50th year. This came after a series of seven 7-year periods, each of which ended with a sabbath year. During the Jubilee year, Hebrew slaves were freed and hereditary land possessions that had been sold were restored. (Lev. 25:8-10) Calculations based on this cycle of years led to the conclusion that perhaps a greater Jubilee for all the earth had begun in the autumn of 1874, that evidently the Lord had returned in that year and was invisibly present (not 1914), and that "the times of restitution of all things" had arrived.Acts 3:19-21, KJ.

    Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of Gods special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close.

    That 1878 was a year of significance seemed to be fortified by reference to Jeremiah 16:18 (Jacobs double, KJ) along with calculations indicating that 1,845 years had apparently elapsed from Jacobs death down till 33 C.E., when natural Israel was cast off, and that the double, or duplicate, of this would extend from 33 C.E. down to 1878.

    (Very interesting concepts that would be considered apostate today)

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    Heathen, i distinctively remember the WTS saying the same thing when i used to go. (that was 10 yrs ago) and it was policy then that Jesus did not "take over" the throne untill 1914. Later, when i started studying the bible myself, the same thought came up to me, when i read scriptures like Matt. 28:18 "ALL AUTHORITY in HEAVEN and on EARTH has been given me. I would take that to mean in a present tense. The greek word used here is "exousia" wich means "authority" or "privelege". John 17:2 also uses the same greek word when Jesus looked up to heaven and said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him AUTHORITY over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." ( RSV) The KJV says AUTHORITY over ALL FLESH. Collosians 2:10 says Jesus is the head of every ruler and authority. (The same greek word is used)

    If ONACRUSE is correct about WTS explaining this authority over just the congregation, how do they get around the above scriptures mentioned? And i'm not too sure they individually believe he is reigning now. I made a comment to my mother (who is a strong JW) that Jesus was on the throne, and she looked at me really wierd, and said something like "yes, but Jehovah is ruling though".

  • Scully
    Scully

    onacruse writes:

    As I recall, the WTS gets around any reference to Jesus as "being" a king before 1914 by saying that he was only ruling as "king" over the Christian congregation (I'm thinking here of Colossians 1:13). But since the congregation is a spiritual Eden, Christ is indeed ruling over a figurative paradise.

    I think many of us have figured out the WTS's trick of inserting the words "spiritual" and "figurative" and "antitypical" whenever they are trying to BS their way through a magazine article. The point of these words is to make the reader believe that the "spirit-directed organization" received some kind of message to that effect, and "Hey, if we on the GB can understand it, why can't you see it too?? Are you stupid or something??" The R&F dub, whether he understands it or not (usually "not") has to nod in agreement, or else start thinking of himself as a dunderhead.

    Take a lesson from the story of The Emperor's New Clothes.....

    Love, Scully

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    Just an afterthought on Matt. 16:28. The dubs say this was reffering to the 2 apostles who saw the transfiguration, and the glorified Jesus. I think maybe Jesus was reffering to his post ressurection, when he was indeed glorified in what most bible scholars believe was a glorified body, and given the keys of the kingdom.

    Then there is Luke 23:42, when the thief was hanging next to Jesus and said: "Jesus remember me WHEN you come into YOUR KINGDOM. He replied "Tuly i tell you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise". Yeah, Yeah, i know the WTS interpretation on this scipture. Putting the coma after TODAY. I've looked at this for some time, and discovered the phrase "Truly i tell you" or "Verily i say unto thee" ( The greek phrase "amen soi lego" ) appears 74 times in the New Testament, and is always used as a introductory statement. Much like the Old Testament phrase "Thus says the LORD" Out of 74 times this is used in the NWT, this is the only the time they place a break after it. Of course we know the reason behind this. If all other translations are correct, then the immortality issue would be proven (at least by Jesus), and Jesus would that day be in HIS KINGDOM. Showing his AUTHORITY at that point.

    Jim

  • heathen
    heathen

    Good points all around .It is clear he was promoted to king of heaven and earth after proving he would be obedient to God under severe test. I agree with scully on the point of the WT claims to have this uncanny ability to determine the spirtual from the figureative and antitypical . Then if they are wrong claim this uncanny ability to tack in the wind such as a sailboat.I think the WT uses REV 11:15 in their arguement but as aforementioned the kingdom of the world under satans direction still exists.Thus the WT is misaplying the scripture to enforce a concept jesus is now the ruler of the world in a spiritual way not in a totalitarian way as described in the passage .This really did get interesting and thanks for the replies .

  • heathen
    heathen

    just one more thought here since this thread is dying. Sangdigger- that scripture with jesus on the torture stake .I think I would agree with the WT on the fact that jesus was not resurected till 3 days after he died ,so there would be no way possible for him to be in paradise with the criminal on the that same day and that promise would be fulfilled at a later date .

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    heathen, that of course is possible, especially if you hold to the belief of soul sleep. And of course another scripture JW's use to support this (Jesus not existing for 2 days untill his ressurection) is when he says to Martha, touch me not, for i have not yet ascended to the Father. However, several points worthy of consideration are these: 1) Jesus recieved a glorified body when he was raised. When he made this comment to Mary and the women, he had not been to heaven yet in his glorified body, but he could have been there in the spirit. 2) 1Peter 1:21 says that after being put to death in the flesh, he was made alive by the spirit: by wich also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. The question is when did he preach to spirits in prison? As a spirit himself? or in a glorified body after his bodily ressurection? 3)Why would he say just before dying, (talking to the Father) into your hands, i commend my spirit? (of course, now i'm getting into the issue of the immortal soul) but would it make sense to ask his father to recieve or commend his breath? The JW's say that the word soul always refers to the life force or breath (wich in some cases it does) Remember Stephen said the same thing, "Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit" 4) Another point to consider is why did Jesus say "tear this temple down, and in 3 days I wil raise it up. How could Jesus himself raise up his own body. But if he existed as a spirit, and was with the thief, he could raise up a glorified body, and then inhabit it.

    Just some thought prevoking stuff. I enjoyed this post. I wish there could be more like it.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Sangdigger- One could argue that if jesus had not accended to heaven then again how could he have been in paradise with the crimminal? I mean hanging around here haunting the living would not be considered paradise I don't think. Besides that he did not offer the guy a place at his right hand as he did to all the apostles and the saints .Now I am looking at the scripture JOHN 2:19 .It does say I will raise it up which does sound as if jesus resurected himself (never really examined it that closely) .I definately need to give this a look at.I have noticed what you are talking about as far as the reference to a spirit that somehow is disembodied at the time of death and am aware of the watchtower teaching on the immortality of the soul and the belief that the spirit is the life force within the flesh .Jesus definately said only those born of the spirit could inherit the kingdom of the heavens.You definately raised some good questions that I will look into a bit further at my leisure.

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    Thats not the only place where Jesus says he would raise his own body up. Check these out as well. Matt.26:61,Mark 14:58, and the best one is John 10:18.

    Later...

  • heathen
    heathen

    Sangdigger - I really only needed to see the scripture that I quoted to see what you are talking about .I do not see evidence for a trinity belief anywhere in the bible so what is more acceptible has got to be something different than what appears .I mean if jesus cried out to God while he was dying ( saying my God my God why have you foresaken me) It makes no sense that he should be talking about himself .Jesus never claimed to be God but merely a servant of God .If anyone has suggested anything that cannot be proven thru the scriptures then I cannot sit here and pretend to believe it myself.At times I don't believe things people claim the scripture says either, as I've already mentioned by starting this thread. Feel free to add any other comments .Thank you for your input.

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