where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

by freemindfade 21 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • freemindfade

    Thought I would put this in its own thread. It another embarrassing statement from the RC (Royal Commission not Regional Convention LOL). It's not even one about abuse, its about the jw's stance on science and the bible. I find it to be a pretty strong statement to have in print.

    Mr Spinks also said where there was a conflict between the Bible and science, the Bible would prevail, because all scripture is "inspired by God"

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney
    Here is that exchange from the transcript.

    12 MR STEWART: Q. Does it have to be an elder who

    13 undertakes the investigation? Let me put that differently:

    14 does it have to be an elder to whom an allegation of child

    15 sexual abuse is made? In other words, you have said it

    16 might be an elder with someone else, perhaps a sister from

    17 the congregation or whomever, but does it have to be an

    18 elder at all?

    19 A. I think, again, if you re‐read the case studies, you

    20 will find numerous examples of where the parents or

    21 guardians have provided the statement without intervention

    22 from the elders, so that the clear answer to that is, no,

    23 that doesn't have to ‐‐


    25 Q. Well, they have provided it to the elder?

    26 A. So, if you are saying, then, at some point are the

    27 elders involved in the investigation process, the answer is

    28 yes.


    30 THE CHAIR: QWhy is it necessary to have elders from

    31 that particular church carry out this function, as opposed

    32 to going outside, to people who aren't known?

    33 A. I think it's a very ‐ I think it is an excellent

    34 suggestion and one that has been discussed at length by us

    35 over the last couple of weeks when that has been raised.

    36 I think we've taken one step towards it. We've got a lot

    37 of other steps to take, as you have highlighted, but one

    38 step is, at least when it gets to the judicial stage, to

    39 make sure that that has outside involvement. But I think,

    40 again, it's a very good point, your Honour.


    42 Q. Is there any possibility of having women join in the

    43 decision‐making process?

    44 A. Scripturally ‐ I appreciate that's the pivotal

    45 question and that comes to the question of is it likely

    46 that women will take on the role of elders in the

    47 congregation, and, scripturally, that's not the

    1 arrangement.


    3 Q. Your answer to my question is: there is no

    4 possibility of women being involved in the decision‐making

    5 process; is that right?

    6 A. I'm happy to say a clear yes. Will Jehovah's

    7 Witnesses find a way to adjust the scriptural process of

    8 the elders being men in the congregation, and my answer to

    9 that is no.


    11 Q. You understand the Bible, I assume, in its social and

    12 political context, when it was written?

    13 A. I do.


    15 Q. And social and political contexts change over time,

    16 don't they?

    17 A. They do.


    19 Q. Does the approach of Jehovahs to the application of

    20 the Bible, as a consequence, change as society changes?

    21 A. If you are referring to Jehovah's Witnesses, I ‐ we

    22 won't change what is a clear scriptural arrangement. So

    23 are there things that we would all do ‐ that we do

    24 differently now that are based on Bible principles?

    25 I think your Honour has highlighted a very clear one, in

    26 that do Jehovah's Witnesses apply the Mosaic law from an

    27 ancient civilisation that dealt with the theocratic, the

    28 civil and the criminal all as one code? No, we don't,

    29 because, as Mr de Rooy said, Christ ended the law. A clear

    30 distinction between theocratic and the law. So have things

    31 changed over the time? Yes. Will some of those clear

    32 instructions in the scriptures change from the Christian

    33 era? I don't believe they will for Jehovah's Witnesses,

    34 because of the application of the arrangements in the

    35 Bible.


    37 And so I have reasoned through this myself,

    38 your Honour, that ‐ will Jehovah's Witnesses adjust what we

    39 see as clear instructions in the scriptures? Will Muslim

    40 people change what they believe in the Koran? Will

    41 Aboriginal people change what they believe is in their

    42 culture? I think there are just some things that are so

    43 deeply a part of their faith and belief system, that what

    44 we need to do is make sure that we conform with the law,

    45 that we do our best to harmonise with the culture. But do

    46 some of those things fit neatly into 21st Century

    47 Australia ‐ I understand the point that you are making.


    2 Q. I take it that if it was the case that there was

    3 a conflict between what science might tell us about human

    4 behaviour and the way these things should be dealt with and

    5 your understanding of the Bible, then the Bible would still

    6 prevail?

    7 A. All scripture is inspired of God. We ‐ like many

    8 Christians, we are not fanatically trying to find

    9 references to make life difficult; we are applying

    10 scripture as we read it, in the best way we can, to

    11 sensitively integrate with modern society.


    13 Q. But you understand the point: there may well be

    14 areas, and we're in one such area, where science has taught

    15 us a lot in recent years about sexual abuse and how to

    16 appropriately respond to it, but if that science was in

    17 conflict with your understanding of the Bible, then the

    18 Bible would prevail; is that correct?

    19 A. Absolutely the Bible will prevail. And if I could,

    20 your Honour, that's why hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses are

    21 in prison in South Korea; in Taganrog, Russia; Azerbaijan;

    22 Eritrea, because they won't budge on a clear Bible

    23 principle that will endure forever.


    25 Q. So if the law of the country was to prescribe a mode

    26 of behaviour which was in conflict with your understanding

    27 of the Bible, what would happen then?

    28 A. We would apply the words in the book of Acts, 5:29, to

    29 obey God as ruler rather than man, and as we did here

    30 during the Second World War, as thousands of Jehovah's

    31 Witnesses did when they refused to comply with the Nazi

    32 regime. The fact that the government at the time makes

    33 a law, Jehovah's Witnesses will always obey scripture, and

    34 that's why we have 28 successful outcomes in the European

    35 Court of Human Rights, because we won't budge where there

    36 is a clear Bible principle that happens to be in conflict

    37 with a government of the day.


    39 THE CHAIR: We might take lunch.

  • Oubliette

    Can someone clarify?

    Who is Mr. Spinks?

    What day of transcripts is this from?

    Thanks in advance.

  • freemindfade
  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney
    This is from today's (August 4) testimony. Mr. Spinks is from the Service Department of the Australian branch.
  • Oubliette
    Sweeney, thanks!
  • galaxie
    Spinks has unequivocally told the jws that in the face of scientific evidence or methods or procedures with regard to child abuse which can give help and justice to victims, if it is deemed contrary to the gb aka fds interpretation of scripture ( at this time as there is precedent that they have altered their understanding of Scripture by way of ' new light ' usually as a result of being in a tight corner ) they could still suffer harm as a result ! Oh how loving and caring of them ie protect the organisation at all cost first innocent children second.
  • Vidiot

    "...they won't budge on a clear Bible principle that will endure forever..."

    Pretentious, much?



    ...slavery was clearly condoned in the Bible; does that mean that that "principle" should endure forever?

  • Viviane
    Really? They tried to pull the Hitler card? Really?
  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney
    "government of the day"
    "Bible principle that will endure forever"

    The government is a temporary nuisance. The Borg doctrine is eternal (subject to new light).

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