Falsifiability

by donkey 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • donkey
    donkey

    I pose this challenge to believers: What would it take for you to stop believing in God?

    This is an interesting challenge. Why? Well, it may sound paradoxical, but in order for any claim to be true, it must be falsifiable. Further I can meet the challenge from the opposite side. I would stop being an atheist if God were to show himself. Believers, however claim that their is a God - fine. But as rationalists we need to always remain open-minded to the possiblity that we are incorrect. Further if our viewpoint is important to us (as belief systems are) then we need to define them in context.

    One of the mentors that I had when I was younger asked me: "Donkey how will you know that you have reached your goals in life?" I responded with something like: "umm ummm ummm". He then proceed to say: "if you cannot define your goals then how will you know that you have met them?" That proved to be massively important in my advancement in life as I was able to just quit drifitng along watching life happen. Why do I cite this story? Because it relates to the principle of falsifiability. For something to be proven true there has to be a point at which we have evidence that it has either succeeded or that it has failed. The same holds true to the claims of a God. There are only two outcomes to the question: "Does God exist?" He either does or he doesn't.

    I am not asking you to prove that God exists. (In fact I am not asking you to do anything for me at all - I am just trying to stimulate you to think - and you can ignore me for being annoying if you so choose). I am asking you to look at the rules of evidence and define for yourself the inverse. What would it take to prove to make you stop believing? Its different for each of us actually. Some of us may just try to rationally reason on things, others of us may experience tragedy and then question whre God was and w/or why he would allow such to befall us.

    The rule of falsifiability, in short, says that the evidence must matter, and as such it is the first and most important and most fundamental rule of evidential reasoning...For example, the true claim that the life span of human beings is less than 200 years is falsifiable; it would be falsified if a single human being were to live to be 200 years old. Similarly, the true claim that water freezes at 32 F is falsifiable; it would be falsified if water were to freeze at, say, 34 F. Each of these claims is firmly established as scientific "fact," and we do not expect either claim ever to be falsified; however, the point is that either could be. Any claim that could not be falsified would be devoid of any propositional content; that is, it would not be making a factual assertion -- it would instead be making an emotive statement, a declaration of the way the claimant feels about the world. - taken from A Field Guide to Critical Thinking by James Lett
  • musky
    musky

    Donkey

    " I would stop being an atheist if God were to show himself. "

    How do you picture God showing himself ? Would it take a huge being on a cloud that descends down upon the entire earth, everyone quaking in their boots? What if an average looking man did some miracles? What if the oceans parted? What would it take?

    I don't know of anything that would make me not believe in God anymore. I think the only other alternative would be to accept that we will grow old and die. Nothing after that. I choose to believe that in there is an afterlife, and that it could be so much better than this one.

    Interesting post BTW

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Musky, I think you are on to something. God has given me ample reason to believe in Him. Looking in to the starry night sky, I can feel eternity. What would it take to not believe in Him? If I died and did not wake up.

  • MYOHNSEPH
    MYOHNSEPH

    Define "God".

  • notperfectyet
    notperfectyet

    I believe in God.

    And I feel for those who don't. Has he been there for me. Proof? I am still alive, we have to figure it out from there, he didn't really want robots.

    He is watching..

    I am a people lover, an animal lover...

    PS minimus........you have a long road a head of you..I hope one day you find the answers to your questions.........my e-mail is open...yours isn't e- mail me............

  • notperfectyet
    notperfectyet

    MYOHNSEPH,

    Please e-mail me

  • rem
    rem

    I think that many deists just can't comprehend what you are saying, donkey. It's like asking a JW "what could the Watchtower Society ever do to make you believe they do not have God's backing?" They will usually say "nothing" or sidestep the question just as several posters have done above because they are not critical thinkers. They are probably simply incapable of rational thinking when it comes to this subject.

    rem

  • donkey
    donkey
    Define "God".

    A physician I have debated with in the past categorized that question this way:

    How can we argue about the existence of God if none of us can define that of which we are debating?
    There are several different quasi-definitions of God used on the various forums. The classic type is the anthropomorphic god. This God usually has a human personality with human emotions, human virtues, and human vices. These are manifested by jealousy, anger, rage, love, mercy, capriciousness, justice and injustice, insecurity (need for adoration as assurance of his supremacy), and forgiveness. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator of all reality. This anthropomorphic god can range from the minimal anthropomorphism of Monotheistic Allah, to the marked human raging Monotheistic JHWH, to the every human Jesus Christ who is a God-human hybrid in a trinity that believers pretend to be Monotheism.
    There are relatively undefined or poorly defined gods such as the one recognised by Deists, Unitarians, and Bahais. This god is conscious but clearly not human. He or She may or may not have emotions. That is not defined. He/She has but one function. That is to create the universe and the rules by which it runs
    Then there is the totally undefined God, not of a particular religious school of thought. People say they believe in a god-creator but say that nothing can be known about this god.
    Another kind of god, believed by many American and probably all European scientists, possibly to avert the charge of Atheism is the Inanimate God. This god is defined, as perhaps Steven Hawking would say, as the elementary forces of nature and the unified field theory of reality. This god is not a conscious being. It has no personality. It is incapable of thinking (cognition). It knows nothing. But its action results in the formation of universes, beginning with a big bang from a tiny singularity, and accounts for all of the properties of energy and matter. Those innate properties account for the evolution of matter from energy and nanoparticles, and the evolution of life from atoms combining into a series of increasingly complex molecules. Life evolves through stages of mobility, which requires some self-awareness and reactivity to cognition and intelligence. Intelligence is merely an animal behaviour evolved in stages for adaptation. This adaptation includes finding food, finding reproductive mates, and avoiding predators. As such thinking and intelligence is not necessary for a creator god who needs no food, needs no reproductive mates, and need fear no predators. Such a creator-god needs intelligence no more than a sponge needs a computer keyboard.

    So in answer to your question - a believer can possibly identify what they mean by "God" and then look at the proof of falsifiability, just as a non-believer should do.

    Edited by - donkey on 24 November 2002 14:59:8

  • notperfectyet
    notperfectyet

    Donkey, If you already had the answer for yourself, why ask the question?

    Physicians think they are God, so why ask them?

    Keep going..you will find the answer.

  • donkey
    donkey

    NPY,

    You still avoided my question.

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