The Bible - inerrant word of God?

by Mr Bean 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

Jim Penton

I would agree with much of what RWC has said, although I am certainly not a Catholic. When someone attacks the Bible - more a library than a book - on the grounds of "common sense, " I have to ask what common sense is and whose is it? When someone throws a statement like that out, I wonder if the person in question isn't assuming that his or her knowledge is superior to others. If so, my reaction is that that is a case of hubris of the worst sort. I had hoped that the effects of the European Enlightenment and the "reign or reason" had gone by the board in the 21st century. But I see it has not--at least here.
Most of the attacks on the Bible are attacks on certain Old Testament passages, and Christians generally have regarded the OT as something given to the Israelites at a particular time and under particular circumstances. Therefore, much of what appears in the OT is culture bound and not acceptable to Christians. The New Testament teaches that the fullness of God's will was not manifested in the Law or Torah but, rather, in Jesus Christ who taught a law of love. Furthermore, if one studies the various books of the OT from the Torah or Law up through the Prophets and writings, he or she can see that there is an evolution towards a kinder, gentler religion leading to Christ.
This development, ultimately through Jesus, led to the practice of a religion that was quite beautiful. It regarded men and women of all kinds as equally worthy or respect and salvation. As Paul said at Galatians 3:28 and 29: "There is neither Jew nor Greek; their is neither slave nor free person; there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Consequently, the earliest Christians practiced a form of religion that certainly outshines what goes on in society today. They didn't believe in capital punishment. They wouldn't even watch the execution of a criminal. They refused to participate in war. They treated slaves as brothers and sisters in Christ. When there were plagues, they stayed to minister to the sick and often died as a result while others fled. They refused to charge interest on loans. They abhored infanticide and abortion. They treated women with greater respect than any, following the beautiful example of Jesus. And all of this was far ahead of the times in which these people were living and quite evidently ahead of the "super-wise" twenty first century in which we are living. And all this is reflected in New Testament, part of the library of Scriptures that a number of you here have felt free to mock without understanding very much about these developments or this history.
Unlike the super wise of our own generation, the early Christians didn't wage war and kill millions while saying "Gott mit uns" as did the Germans in both world wars. Nor did they say "In God we trust" and "God bless America" as have modern Americans while also carrying on unjust wars. So let me suggest that some of you start reading passages from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew, the Hymn of Love at 1 Corinthians 13, or 1 John. Then maybe you will have a little more respect for the Bible.
Someone asked about other Holy Books. I believe that there is much that is good and beautiful in other religious books. The second century Church Father, Justin Martyr, taught that there was what he called the logos spermaticos in all humans. In other words there was some of the divine reason in all humans, since the word logos in Greek means "reason" as well as "word" or "sermon." This is an concept which seems to be based on the idea that humans were created in the image of God (which means having reason and moral values). Paul develops a similar idea at Romans 1. Therefore, there may be good, Godly ideas in the various religious works, simply arising out of the nature of humans.
However, I believe that in a final sense, the real revelation of God was Christ. I do not like calling the Bible the Word of God. Nowhere in the Scriptures is any book called the Word of God. The Word of God is, however, Jesus Christ, who brought a message of love and salvation to mankind. And that love is expressed by concern for the other, often in spite of the other. "God so love the world (a pretty nasty world) that he gave his only begotten Son." Yet we could not learn about Jesus without the Bible, and his role in the first century would not be clear without the background of the OT.
So I express my appreciation for the Bible and say: Christ had died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again.
Jim Penton
gumby

Also, the New Testament is one of the most throughly preserved ancient wrtings that we have.
Preservation of something adds nothing to it's value other than being an old relic. If God had in mind a book to be preserved from him....would he have allowed it to be destroyed .....then re-made by the RECOLLECTION of these events and re-written?
God's actions in the OT is enough for me to doubt he is the author, without the other debates. Any God who kills little boys, girls, babies, can kiss my arse.
Jim Penton

Grumby,
Your language is offensive and your thinking childish. Would you tell the American government to "kiss your arse" for killing 500,000 men, women and children in Iraq during the last ten years? Please take some tums!
Jim Penton
DannyBear

Jim,
***Therefore, there may be good, Godly ideas in the various religious works, simply arising out of the nature of humans.***
This statement tends to contradict a comment you made about 'religion' being the basis for man's morality. I may be mistaken, but you seemed to be very clear about this on another thread.
'Chicken before the egg' syndrome. Which is it?
I personally believe that Martyr has it right. There seem's to be a universal code of morals amongst all humans, no matter the religion or lack thereof. I used to take the same stand as regards religion the catalyst for morality, but have reevaluated that assertion, because of what you have just pointed out.
So it is not a big leap for me to understand how the Isrealites could develope a code (ten commandments), other law's needed to accomadate thier life style and circumstance. Especially easy to accept based upon thier (jews) almost fanatical attention to detail and religious chronicaling ie.Talmud.
Even though your comments as regards other religious works seems to be magnanimous, you do not address the issue of inspiration.
How can Christian's assert that thier 'Bible' is any more inspired than the rest of the body of 'holy scriptures' considered also to be provided by the hand of God?
Danny
donkey

Most of the attacks on the Bible are attacks on certain Old Testament passages, and Christians generally have regarded the OT as something given to the Israelites at a particular time and under particular circumstances. Therefore, much of what appears in the OT is culture bound and not acceptable to Christians.

Nice convenient way to explain away stuff that gets you in a hole? Let's make God appear to be inconsistent and have 2 sets of rules rather than make him accountable for the ridiculous things written about him in the old testament!!!
DannyBear

donkey,
An excellent observation.
The final paragraph of Jim's comments, reflect the same attitude. Christian's seem to be so filled with the idea (emotional reliance) on Jesus, that they are willing to accomodate the unbeliever's, by admitting that perhap's the Bible is not the inerrant word of God.............BUT BUT, where would we learn about JESUS without it?
I coud make the same assertion about the pharoh's of ancient Egypt, where would we learn about them, had it not been for the hieroglyphics, as is true of any other historical personage.......uninspired historians..
Danny
gumby

Would you tell the American government to "kiss your arse" for killing 500,000 men, women and children
Comparing God and the government is a bad analogy would'nt you say?
If God were dropping bombs on the enemy.....I think he could spare the innocent and kill the enemy......he has the power to do so doesn't he? Our government cannot do this.
And ....yes....I would tell the government to kiss my arse if I felt they did something unjustified.
You Jim, know as well as I , that when Jehovah killed the inhabitants of Caanan ( 7 nations) that the little boys, girls, babies, did what their parents taught them....it was all they knew wasn't it? Yet God wipes them out to keep his Abrahamic promise, and to punish them for their idolotry, fornication, and other misdeeds.
If you think God was being just to these ones.....you might as well return to the JW's......you seem to think my thinking is childish I guess because I'm not as heartless as the God of the bible is.
How about drowning all the people on the earth except for those 8 faithful ones? Shame on those people who didn't listen to a man building a boat in the desert telling them to repent!!!!! Drown them all.....women, babies, the sick and blind too. Yes this God can kiss my arse over and over!!!!!!!!
Dutchie

Jim, your contention that women in the Bible were treated with respect and as equals is ludicrous. Note the following scriptures:
Genesis 19:5-8:
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so
that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

Isaiah 3:16-23
The LORD says, "The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, tripping along with mincing steps, with ornaments jingling on their ankles.
Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the LORD will make their scalps bald." In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, the earrings and bracelets and veils, the headdresses and ankle chains and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, the signet rings and nose rings, the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.

Numbers 5:12-31
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected ...and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure--or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure-- then he is to take his wife to the priest... "The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with
you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband -- here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath--"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away."
Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
"The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water.
He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water.
If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin."
Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Matthew 18:25 :
Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that
he had be sold to repay the debt.

Isaiah 19:16:
In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that
the LORD Almighty raises against them.

Jeremiah 50:37:
A sword against her horses and chariots and all the foreigners in her ranks! They will become
women. A sword against her treasures! They will be plundered.

1 Corinthians 14:34:
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in
submission, as the Law says.

1 Timothy 2:11:
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1 Timothy 2:9 :
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or
pearls or expensive clothes.

Esther 1:10-22:
According to law, what must be done to Queen Vashti?" he asked. "She has not obeyed the command of King Xerxes that the eunuchs have taken to her."
Then Memucan replied in the presence of the king and the nobles, "Queen Vashti has done wrong, not only against the king but also against all the nobles and the peoples of all the provinces of King Xerxes. For the queen's conduct will become known to all the women, and so they will despise their husbands and say, `King Xerxes commanded Queen Vashti to be brought before him, but she would not come.'

Genesis 3:16:
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give
birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Judges 11:
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands,
whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the
Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands.
He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim.
Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his
daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had
neither son nor daughter.
When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me
miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you
promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.
But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep
with my friends, because I will never marry."
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills
and wept because she would never marry.
After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she
was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom that each year the young women of Israel
go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
Leviticus 12:1-8:
The LORD said to Moses,
"Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be
ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not
touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her
period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
"`When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the
priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young
pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.
He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be
ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. "`These are the regulations for the woman who
gives birth to a boy or a girl.
If she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt
offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her,
and she will be clean.'"
1 Corinthians 11:5:
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just
as though her head were shaved.
RWC

Dutchie, For all of the passages you quote, I could equally quote passages that say bad things will happen to men when they disobey God. For example, your quote in Genesis about childbirth fails to include the curse on men that he will toil hard all his life and than he will die. To me that does not sound like unequal treatment.
I can also quote passages that show woman are treated with respect and dignity. For example:
Proverbs 31:10 -31 A wife of Noble character She is worth far more than rubies; She is clothed with strength and dignity; She speaks with wisdom; Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also and he praises her; Give her the reward she has earned and let her works bring her praise at the city gate
John 8:4- -11 - Woman caught in the act of Adultry and Jesus says that whoever is without sin let him cast the first stone. He saves her life and than does not condemn her
1Peter 3:7- Husbands in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner(meaning physically weaker) as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life
Hebrews 13:4- Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure. for God will judge the adultrer and the sexually immoral (This applies equally to men and women)
Ephesians 5:25- Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her....In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself... For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and become united to his wife for the two will become one flesh
Genesis 2:24- For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh
Genesis 24:66- Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife and he loved her
Exodus 20:17 Thou shall not covet your neighbors wife
Your examples must be read in their context. For example Isaiah 3:16 is referring to the wrath of God over the entire people of Isreal in part for their treatment of the poor. It it referring to the women having jewels and finer things at the expense of not taking care of the poor. It also says that the men will be killed. Matthew 18:25 is in the middle of a parable wher the end result is that the king took pity on the man and wiped out his debt. That same man failed to take pity on someone else who owed him less and the man was punished for his lack of compassion. It is not a lesson on how to treat women.
A full reading of the Bible and its teachings reflect that women are treated with dignity, respect and love. They are punished just like men for their wrongdoing and are praised for their faithfullness. They are to be treated by thier husbands with unselfishness and they are to be protected and admired. How can that be bad?
God Bless
Dutchie

I could equally quote passages that say bad things will happen to men when they disobey God.

RWC, therein lies the dilemna. The Bible will say whatever it is we want it to say. Misogny and chauvanism run rampant through the scriptures and the head covering required by women is the least of it. However, your being a man you probably can't see that. You probably think that its proper that women be in subjection because after all we are the "weaker" sex and you are the big, strong man.

The Bible - inerrant word of God?

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