In the following Jim Penton's statements are in plain type while the reply by ourselves as truly Free Christians appears in red:
I refuse to get carried away with the suggestion that every charge made against the Watchtower Society, Witness elders, or individual Witnesses is valid.
Many of the "charges" are correct as proved by the names of elders and ministerial servants already sent to prison and we continue hearing of trials under way or headed there. No one said "EVER" charge would be valid and nor did Bill or any of us say every charge is but if 99.9% or 89.9% rather than 100% still a SIGNIFICANT number are.
Why do I mention this? Because, while many of the religions called cults are quite dangerous and deserve to be criticized (and in some cases prosecuted), the anti-cult movement became overly zealous and has become a great danger to civil liberties.... T
here have been far too many cases of false accusation of child abuse.
And there have been many that are absolutely correct and as proved in court.
But curiously, the Society (while throwing almost every other aspect of biblical fairness out the window) did preserve, in theory if not in practice, the two-witness rule. So I am hesitant to see that aspect of its policy attacked.
The "Society," as you noteably choose to courteously term Watchtower cult misleadership, counts a womans who testifies that her husband confessed adultery as ONE witness and counts any elder who testifies that she is a credible witness as a SECOND witness but yet does not count as two witnesses the testimony of a victim and then an elder testifying to her veracity! This was the sort of thing Bill brought up. He did not as you insinuate say it is not good to have more than one witness. Never, never ever.
Now, specifically, let me address some of the charges Bill Bowen has made against Ray Franz. He asserts that there was evidence of child abuse with the Watchtower Society when Ray was on the Governing Body. Perhaps so. However, does that prove that Ray is lying when he says that the issue never came before the Governing Body when he was on it.
Not at all. I attempted to do research at the Brooklyn Bethel, the Canadian, British and French Bethels when I was working on my history of the Witnesses in Canada and know that, frequently, the Watchtowers right hand doesnt know what its left hand is doing. The Watchtower is a great bureaucracy in which much information is often lost in the shuffle. Therefore, knowing Ray Franz as I do, I believe him.
Where do you get that Bill said Ray "lied". That is what someone has told you perhaps. Bill has said Ray would have known about it but chose not to speak out about it. And that is fact. You yourself weakly but clearly say "Perhaps so" as to Ray's having been on the Gov Body. Your left hand-right hand analogy is good and it is possible Ray somehow did not know of the pedophilia and other molestation by Gov Body members on down right into congregations. But here's the point: NOW that Ray is aware of the problem he has the opportunity to speak up forcefully but he does not - and Bill Bowen has rightly noted this although being willing to let the matter go in consideration of possible mitigating factors we are not all privy to such as Watchtower holding trumpted up dirt over Ray's head.
Furthermore, I am upset at Bills unhistorical approach to the past. ... As someone who served as a servant among Jehovahs Witnesses from 1953 to 1972 and as an elder thereafter until I broke with the Witnesses in 1980, never once did I run into a case of child abuse; and I served as servant or elder in four American states, Puerto Rico, Alberta Canada, and Spain.
This means nothing. No one has charged you yourself with deliberately not reporting a case. But you need to be aware of the fact that since 1980 the powers of those at the top in the hierarchy on down have increased with any checks or balances, thus increasing both the likelihood for and the actual incidence of pedophilia and other crimes, again as attested to by those now going serving prison time and enroute there.
The fact is that we were not very aware of child abuse in earlier years, any more than we were aware of incest or a lot of sexual practices that almost everyone seems to know about today. Among other things, very few older Witnesses or even middle aged ones, knew about such things as oral and anal intercourse until the Watchtower decided that it had to educate us about them. We were babes to such badness, for the world was not so sex mad and violence mad as it is today.
Granted. But now that people are so informed, they do well to speak up, do they not!
On Silentlambs, Bill presents a lot of what he regards as evidence of Witness child abuse. No doubt that there is basis to many of the allegations presented there, but allegations remain allegations until proven in courts of law.
You're ducking, ignoring that there are actual flesh-and-blood convicted criminals who were elders and ministerial servants, that the same unbalanced unchecked situation still exists.
Bill seems to think that Jehovahs Witnesses are more guilty of child sexual abuse than members of other religions. I doubt that.
He did not say that. Let it be said that it is NOT JWs themselves as individuals who are under fire now from the media, the courts and police but it is the MISLEADERSHIP over them.
Finally, let me say a few things about Bills use of language. I dont like the way he has referred to Rays recent statement. His categorization of Rays remarks was less than gentlemanly and his use of the letters c.y.a., which I take to mean cover your ass, was simply crude.
If you had heard 50,000 victims of pedophilia over Bill's 1 877-WT-ABUSE toll free number as he and his wife have you might have used cya or a similar expression. Why not interpret his expressions of concern as expressions of concern rightly delivered rather than "crude" as you chose to put it. Further, how do you know Ray Franz is not c.h.a.-ing? How do we know You are not c.h.a.-ing?
Unfortunately, this whole affair has not been healthy or upbuilding, and if Bill thinks he is going to gain much by attacking a man who has been responsible for the liberation of thousands of Jehovahs Witnesses, he should think again. Whether Ray was right, wrong or indifferent to the issue at hand, there is no valid reason to attack him.
Bill has a right to criticise if he wishes, after all that's what you're doing here right now yourself. Criticising silence on this important issue is rightly done and fair. Let us note that Ray Franz, whom you trumpet as a great liberator also wrote "The Truth That Leads To Everlasting Life" book which put millions into chains although after disfellowshipped his C of C book helped release a portion of those whom it had enslaved as they had thought that it really did tell the truth.
Ray Franz's still staying silent on the pedophile issue is Wrong although again he deserves commendation for having also written C of C and In Search Of Christian Freedom.
Bill Bowen did not make a huge attack on Ray Franz any more than this posting is doing so. Rather than aimed at Ray Franz it is aimed at your posting here. However Ray Franz's silence is not positive, although possibly understandable, as said, for reasons best known to himself. It is a shame he also very noticeably did not seek to field any viable alternative to Watchtower cultism to free more JWs from it.
Both Watchtower and the other groups that call themselves "the Bible Students" are cults, paying only lip service to Christian freedom. You yourself are from a family of Bible Students, Jim Penton, and I have no idea if you still are or not, but regardless your verbosity here is wholly misplaced.
Long live the real "Free Christians" movement by whatever name it may go.
Edited by - nancee park on 1 November 2002 17:54:9
Edited by - nancee park on 1 November 2002 17:55:9
