Loyalty to the truth

by happy man 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • happy man
    happy man

    At bokstudy yesterday , we talk of the diffrent things GB say, and who we must stand to this.

    I tell that they are only peopel and have make some misstaks, as we can se , fore exampel in the proclaimers book, well the study leader say, we must shoe loyality to the Gb, even iif it later show upp to bee wrong, it is very importat that we follow what they say.

    This is a ver difficult area, ofcourse in our religion we can not have 6 million diffretn wuies, but if we follow evry word very carefull, are we then not follow man?

    What about if they say something who take your life, and later change this, who is responsibel, or even worse our kidds, who are resposibel if they die on such polyci, like the transplantaision prohibition, we have fore some time, are we fore exampel personaly responsibel fore our akts, when the day is here, or can we say, we only follow what the GB say.

    This is a very tricky qestion who I think about a lot

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi Happy Man,

    I will let the Bible answer your question:

    Jeremiah 17:5: Thus says Jehovah: Cursed is the man who trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from Jehovah.

    Psalm 118:8: It is better to take refuge in Jehovah, Than to put confidence in man.
    Psalm 118:9: It is better to take refuge in Jehovah, Than to put confidence in princes.

    Romans 3:4: ....Yes, let God be found True, but every man a liar. As it is written, "That you might be justified in your words, And might prevail when you come into judgment."

    Titus 1:2: in hope of eternal life, which God, who can't lie, promised before eternal times;

    John 8:32: You will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free."

    John 8:36: If therefore the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

    John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me.

    I follow the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and what is written in God's Word the Holy Scriptures.

    I follow no man, no organization, no organized religion, no club, no group.

    Here is how Jesus Christ said that you would know who His true followers are:

    John 13:34: A New Commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just like I have loved you; that you also love one another.
    John 13:35: By this everyone will know that you are My Disciples, if you have love for one another."

    John 15:12: "This is My Commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.
    John 15:13: No one has greater love than this, that someone will lay down his life for his friends.
    John 15:14: You are My friends, if you do whatever I command you.

    Matthew 7:12: Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.

    Mark 12:28: One of the Scribes came, and heard them questioning together. Knowing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which Commandment is the greatest of all?"
    Mark 12:29: Jesus answered, "The greatest is, 'Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One:
    Mark 12:30: you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the First Commandment.
    Mark 12:31: The Second is like this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other Commandment greater than these."

    Matthew 5:44: But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you,
    Matthew 5:45: that you may be children of your Father who is in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

    Of course, no one is perfect, so no one can always have the perfect love towards others that Christ had.

    Everyone sins, makes mistakes, offends people.

    But, if they truly believe in the True Jesus Christ of the Bible, and they try their hardest to have the Love that Jesus had, then they are the True Followers of Christ.

  • minimus
    minimus

    All mistakes made by the governing body are cancelled because they did it with good intentions. So don't worry about such life and death matters. Just go out in service and be loyal to the organization.

  • blondie
    blondie

    To paraphrase Hezekiah 15:4:

    "The road to Gehenna is paved with good intentions."

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Following the Governing Body the way JW's do is IDOLATRY according to the Bible.

    The GB has REPLACED Jesus Christ.

  • happy man
    happy man

    minimus, ha, ha, your funny arent you?

    It was intresting to look at the reaktion from the audiens when he made this comment, it was like a bomb, some very bigg eyes, i made a comment to see what he going to say, beaucuase this man is one of this who have very hard ruels and , and very littel thing is very important fore him to obey.

    Never cuold i expekt this answer, i think some was littel disturbd, my dotter fore exampel who say to mee after the meting, 13 years old, now you understan why i dont want this crap, not so easy to be father today , or what do you say minimus?

    In some way I must take this ball upp, sayin, even if it is wrong we must obeyd, is not so cleaver i think.

    I read on some place that in a court in the 50 ties, Gb say something like this, but i dont now exatly what it was?

  • Francois
    Francois

    Following the bible the way the JWs do is both IDOLATRY and ADDING TO OR TAKING AWAY FROM the scriptures; both of which are cursed by God.

    I regard the GB, and it's entire heirarchy right down to the lowliest MS guilty of "skinning the sheep" and I feel they will receive exactly what they deserve.

    francois

  • minimus
    minimus

    'now you understand why i don't want this crap?'.........Your 13 yr. old daughter is cool!....Like father, like daughter,no?

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hi HappyMan,

    The Watchtower Society has re-defined the meaning of the word TRUTH, almost making it into a brand name, like TRUTH brand toilet paper, or TRUTH brand septic cleaner.

    The TRUTH is that TRUTH is congruent with observable reality, not counter to it.

    For example, 2 + 2 does not equal 144,000. People in every culture since civilization began can agree on the real answer, the TRUTHful answer.

    How many times have were heard "faithful" brothers zealously proclaim that "if the Society told me the sky was green, then it is GREEN!" These people are truly brainwashed robots who have surrendered the use of thier own brains - brains that "god" gave them with wich to learn and understand the universe around them. They surrender their rational faculties to the fleeting whims of a few uneducated, ignorant, bigoted geriatric fruit bags who care not at all for the flock of dumb-Dub sheep they lead.

    Lamb stew, anyone?

    You asked about a trial from the 1950s that contained testamony from Franz and Knorr and other WTS officers. I copied this from Nicolaou's post:

    In November 1954, the Douglas Walsh trial was held in the Scottish Court of Sessions, in which the Watchtower Society tried to establish before the British court that certain of its members were ordained ministers. High ranking leaders of the Society testified, including vice-president Fred Franz and legal counsel for the Society, Haydon C. Covington. Covingtons testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following:

    Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?

    A. It certainly is.

    Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?

    A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.

    Q. You have promulgated - forgive the word - false prophesy?

    A. We have - I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.

    Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christs Second Coming was?

    A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.

    Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovahs Witnesses that the Lords Second Coming took place in 1874?

    A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.

    Q. You heard Mr. Franzs evidence?

    A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.

    Q. Leave me out of it?

    A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.

    Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?

    A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.

    Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christs Second Coming was in 1874?

    A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

    Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?

    A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

    Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovahs Witnesses?

    A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

    Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?

    A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.

    Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?

    A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satans Organisation, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.

    Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

    A. I agree that.

    Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovahs Witnesses?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. If a member of Jehovahs Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

    A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

    Q. Unity at all costs?

    A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

    Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

    A. That is conceded to be true.

    Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?

    A. I think - - -

    Q. Would you say yes or no?

    A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

    Q. Do you call that religion?

    A. It certainly is.

    Q. Do you call it Christianity?

    A. I certainly do.

    Fred Franz, then vice-president of the Society, also answered questions for the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service.

    Q. In addition to these regular publications do you prepare and issue a number of theological pamphlets and books from time to time?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society?

    A. It is obligatory. . . . . . . . .

    The British government counsellor later directed attention to certain teachings that the Society had in time rejected, including some involving specific dates. What, he asked, if someone, at the time when such teaching was promulgated, had seen the error in it and had therefore not accepted it? What would the organizations attitude toward such one be? The testimony explains:

    Q. Did [Pastor Russell] not fix 1874 as some other crucial date?

    A. 1874 used to be understood as the date of Jesus Second Coming spiritually.

    Q. Do you say, used to be understood?

    A. That is right.

    Q. That was issued as a fact which was to be accepted by all who were Jehovahs Witnesses?

    A. Yes.

    Q. That is no longer now accepted, is it?

    A. No.

    . . . . . . . .

    Q. But it was a calculation which is no longer accepted by the Board of Directors of the Society?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. So that am I correct, I am just anxious to canvas the position; it became the bounden duty of the Witnesses to accept this miscalculation?

    A. Yes . . . . . . . .

    Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years?

    A. We have to wait and see.

    Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovahs Witnesses have been following error?

    A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures.

    Q. Error?

    A. Well, error.

    Again the question as to how great the authority attributed to the Societys publications is came in for discussion. While at one point the vice president says that "one does not compulsorily accept," his testimony thereafter reverts back to the earlier position, as can be seen:

    A. These [Watchtower Society] books give an exposition on the whole Scriptures.

    Q. But an authoritative exposition?

    A. They submit the Bible or the statements that are therein made, and the individual examines the statement and then the Scripture to see that the statement is Scripturally supported.

    Q. He what?

    A. He examines the Scripture to see whether the statement is supported by the Scripture. As the Apostle says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".

    Q. I understood the position to be - do please correct me if I am wrong - that a member of the Jehovahs Witnesses must accept as a true Scripture and interpretation what is given in the books I referred you to?

    A. But he does not compulsorily do so, he is given his Christian right of examining the Scriptures to confirm that this is Scripturally sustained.

    Q. And if he finds that the Scripture is not sustained by the books, or vice versa, what does he do?

    A. The Scripture is there in support of the statement, that is why it is put there.

    Q. What does a man do if he finds a disharmony between the Scripture and those books?

    A. You will have to produce me a man who does find that, then I can answer, or he will answer.

    Note Franzs waffling. He is unwilling, even under oath, to admit that present understanding can be in error, even though he just finished testifying that what is published as truth today may be error in a few years.

    Q. Did you imply that the individual member has the right of reading the books and the Bible and forming his own view as to the proper interpretation of Holy Writ?

    A. He comes - - -

    Q. Would you say yes or no, and then qualify?

    A. No. Do you want me to qualify now?

    Q. Yes, if you wish?

    A. The Scripture is there given in support of the statement, and therefore the individual when he looks up the Scripture and thereby verifies the statement, then he comes to the Scriptural view of the matter, Scriptural understanding as it is written in Acts, the seventeenth chapter and the eleventh verse, that the Bereans were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness, and they searched the Scripture to see whether those things were so, and we instruct to follow that noble course of the Bereans in searching the Scripture to see whether these things were so.

    Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"?

    A. He must accept those.

    Edited by - Nathan Natas on 18 October 2002 9:31:18

  • dsgal
    dsgal

    Happy man,

    Why do you mis-spell some easy words and spell some very difficult words correctly?It seems to me like you really know how to spell but you are mis-spelling either to get attention or play dumb.It is very annoying to read your posts because of this.I will overlook them from now on.

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