Might as well jump in...

by Cygnus 51 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Nathan Natas

  Cygnus said, "I have it on good authority that Bill is not concerned with the Bible, and that he is as far from being a JW as could be (religiously speaking).
  Bill has refused to answer my inquiries as well as others' when asked about his position on religious/JW matters ..."

  It seems to me Cygnus, that maybe you're still experiencing the delusion that the Watchtower Society offers some form of "the Truth(tm)." Does a person have to be in alignment with the WTS to be valid in your opinion? I'm an atheist myself - I reject the WTS entirely. I believe that child molesters are criminals and that they belong in jail. You may not agree with my Atheology, but I know that I am not a hypocrit like the WTS.

  Kelsey007 said,The only thing I disagree with is that you referred to Mr Bowen being "kicked out". It seems to escape everyones attention that Mr Bowen "quit" 13 months prior to getting "kicked out".

  Actually Kelsey, Bill Bowen stepped down from his position as an elder - he never disassociated himself from the congregation. He was disfellowshipped in absentia from Jehovah's Witnesses just a few weeks ago.
  
  Jimbob said, "...If Bill says he still believes every single belief and doctrine of the WTS, then that's his perogative. The same goes for the opposite. I for one do not care what his take on WTS beliefs are."

  Quite obviously Jimbob, Bill Bowen does NOT believe EVERYTHING the WTS teaches, because Bill is opposed to the protection and sheltering or pedophiles, which the Watchtower Society promotes.

  How about you, Jimbob? You too, Cygnus - do you agree with the Watchtower Society that pedophiles should be protected and sheltered? Do you support your local pedophile?

  Edited by - Nathan Natas on 10 October 2002 12:8:33
• 

  mouthy

  Hi every one I wrote to Bill & asked if he still believed the Watchtower Doctrine. he replied "IT IS A CULT"

  That was his answer. I am not interested in" he said -she said-they said" just the FACTS that is all.
• 

  Cygnus

  roybatty,

  I take issue with Bill using the Bible to defend his actions, but never responding to questions about what he believes regarding the Bible, and particularly the scriptural basis for the two witnesses principle. Bill wants to portray himself as a Christian, he asks that the GB act in a "Christian" manner, and I have serious doubts that he cares at all about Christianity or the Bible.

  Nathan,

  Allow to me clarify something for you. First, in regards to Watchtower policy, as far as I know, it does not prohibit anyone from going to the police -- not the abused, nor the abused's family, or anyone else in a position of responsibility closely associated to the circumstances involving alleged abuse. Some might be counseled that they need to accept reponsbility for erroneous allegations, but SO WHAT! If a person is convinced enough that abuse has taken place or wants the authorities to investigate it, then they take that risk of being proved wrong and censured by the congregation if they continue to make a gigantic stink about it. A couple of posters here have given me some interesting food for thought in regards to the behavior of certain Watchtower officials, but I can see how if a JW plays their cards right, there shouldn't be much of an issue here at all. JWs ought to simply be better educated and learn how to use the system properly. And tell idiot elders to shove it.

  Secondly, I have no love for the Watchtower religion. There are four things the WTS teaches that I agree with. (1) you should not murder (2) you should not steal (3) there is no three-headed god and (4) when you die, you're really dead. That's all. My concern is that people who leave the Watchtower become bitterly opposed to everything that has "Watchtower" written on it; they become unbalanced in their thinking and eventually morph into exactly what it is that they presume to hate.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Cygnus said, "Allow to me clarify something for you. First, in regards to Watchtower policy, as far as I know, it does not prohibit anyone from going to the police -- not the abused, nor the abused's family, or anyone else in a position of responsibility closely associated to the circumstances involving alleged abuse."

  The fact, Cygnus, is that this policy is a fairly recent development if it is not simply a PR ploy. Do you know of any instance in which the policy was followed as stated? The WTS was unable to provide Dateline investigators with any example, except for one where the molester was NOT a JW. This "policy" did not exist 5, 10, 20, 30 or 100 years ago. You are aware of that, aren't you? Do you think that the approximately 5,000 stories that have come to Bill Bowen's SilentLambs from abuse survivors are all lies? Do you think that the more than 23,000 cases of abuse that Barbara Anderson reported seeing were a hallucination? The fact is that these things happened. I was an MS in a congregation in NYC in the 70s when we had a serial child molester in the congregation, and absolutely NOTHING was done to stop this man's predation - in fact, he was allowed to marry a sister who had two small children from a previous marriage, and the sister was never told of her betrothed's past criminal child molesting activity. But the Watchtower slaps a fresh coat of paint on the moldering walls and asks everyone to "see how CLEAN, smell how FRESH." It's time to wake up and smell the cadaverine.

  Edited by - Nathan Natas on 10 October 2002 13:11:22
• 

  og

  I'd sure like to see Bill respond to HS's comments that he (Bill) called HS a "dickhead" and asked for a "pledge". HS's post, and Bill's on line irregularities here (esp. that ridiculous letter), lead me to believe that the Silentlambs organization has grown into something that Bill is not able to handle. He needs some help - surely, aside from the particular religious issues, other child-abuse groups have something to offer. Incidentally, Silentlambs is something I couldn't handle either - I don't think Bill is less of a person for that.

  W/regard to Cygnus's comments re: Silentlambs purpose - I agree to a point; but, it does strike me as enormously significant that files of abusers are kept in a central location, and this information isn't made available when it can do good.
• 

  MrMoe

  Cygnus didn't strike me as a supporter of the WTS or child molesters. I took his comments as he isn't in direct support of Bill Bowen or his cause, and for whatever reasons I really don't give a hoot.

  As it was brought up earlier... Just because a person dislikes Breast Cancer, does not mean they provide funding for the organizations that provide Breast Cancer awareness, nor do they volunteer thier time. Same goes for Centers for Battered Women, Greenpeace... shall I go on?

  While I am against child abuse and molestation, I did not participate in the SL march, and to be frank, even if I had the financial means I probably would not have done so. Simply put, it is not my battle to fight.
• 

  Mulan

  For what it's worth, this is my take on whether to support or join a cause, or whatever.

  For myself, I was a molestation victim, (minor as it was) and I feel the desire to support Silentlambs. My best friend, cousin, died last year of breast cancer, so I will also support that cause, to the best of my ability.

  I have many things I am interested in, and can't participate in everything (like the above) that comes around. I simply don't have the time or funds. If I lived near NY, I would have been at the march in a heartbeat. I live on the West Coast, and have traveled a lot this year, on business and pleasure, and it just wasn't possible for me to go. But, I have been out of the WTS for nearly 6 years too, and I feel in most ways, I have moved on.

  Many that are newly out, need a cause to get behind............understandable I think. This is not a criticism. As JW's, we were always so busy, busy, busy, that there is void in our lives after we leave the organization, that needs to be filled. Many of us get involved in causes, like Silentlambs, or others that strike a passion in us. That's a good thing!!

  Just my thoughts. I hope this all dies down now.
• 

  VeniceIT

  I don't see how Bills religious beliefs have any bearing on the matter at all, that is his business. He is calling WTS to task according to 'THEIR' belifs and the rules they have set up.

  Ven
• 

  sf

  " The fact is that these things happened. I was an MS in a congregation in NYC in the 70s when we had a serial child molester in the congregation, and absolutely NOTHING was done to stop this man's predation - in fact, he was allowed to marry a sister who had two small children from a previous marriage, and the sister was never told of her betrothed's past criminal child molesting activity."

  Why was 'NOTHING' done; as soon as YOU were Aware! of a SERIAL CHILD PREDATOR? Did you think 'jehovah' would 'weed his ass out' (skally 1:1) to the cops MIRACULOUSLY, by DEVINE INTERVETNION?

  Did you have a phone at the time or a car, to drive to the police station or Human Services, to Alert! them of what YOU were just made Aware! of?? What took YOU so long to report the s.o.b.?? Why have YOU still not reported him?

  What's his name? I'll report his sorry ass.

  THIS IS WHAT BURNS ME UP...."I KNEW, HAD DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF....and they this and they that", yet NO ONE IS STILL REPORTING THESE CRIMINALS TO POLICE TODAY!!

  Give the sKally names and I will report them. I will put the names out to the regions and investigate where they are NOW. Who do they have access to NOW? Who has been 'mutilated' over the years because YOU, AS A M.S.(SERVANT TO THE CONG) sat on a perps name and dirty deeds?

  You see, when you tell me, MAKE ME AWARE! of an abused child, whether it's sex abuse or a punch in the face....I CANNOT, WILL NOT SIT BACK AND DO 'NOTHING'!

  So, what was/ is his name Natas? I WILL 'do' what YOU could not (would not) all those years ago. Or was it all that long ago? How long have you been Aware!, that a serial molester is STILL OUT THERE MOLESTING??

  sKally...on the verge of a huge 'explosion' klass (FOCUS!)
• 

  Cygnus

  Nathan,

  I don't doubt the word of Barb Anderson, nor do I doubt your anecdote. I don't doubt that there have been abusers in the JW organization, and that things were not handled well quite often in the past.

  But that is in the past. Is silentlambs going to keep digging up 40 year old allegations and sobstories to make the old WTS look bad, or is it going to accept the progressive changes the WTS is attempting to make?

  I have no love for the WTS but just like Augusta National, they shouldn't let anybody bully them into doing anything if they aren't breaking the law.

  Edited to add: and if a court of law DOES find them guilty of crimes committed, then silentlambs can possibly crow (although I would still reserve the right to appreciate changes the WTS have tried to make to deal with poor or vague past policies, and also the right to disagree with a court's decision).

  Edited by - Cygnus on 10 October 2002 13:58:55