Are we wrong to attack the Elders?

by MARTINLEYSHON 61 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Brummie

  "If we are going to tarnish all elders with the same brush, are we no worse than the dubs who tarnish all of us as apostates? "

  "Therefore my view still stands after giving careful consideration to all the replies, if some of us are going to put all elders into the same category as unjust men who can think for themselves then that is an amoral act on our part."

  Yet you felt quite comfortable tarnishing them all with the same brush in your original post:

  There is an inference that these ones ( elders ) can think for themselves, they cannot.

  Lets be honest and without fear of contradiction the majority of Elders are scared shitless of loosing their coveted position,

  These men cant think for themselves, they are not allowed to.

  Well if that isnt tarnishing the majority with the same brush then what is? A lot of them do and CAN think for themselves and still choose the Society regime.

  Why cause a stink up here just because some do not hold to your veiw. You still sound very much like an elder in this later post. The first one I could respect, it was your expressed opinion, the last post gives no consideration for any one elses veiw except your own. To disagree with you would mean we are all like dubs, we cant tarnish the elders but you can. We cant disagree with you or we are like dubs but you can disagree with us and still see yourself as the one who still has the superior opinion.

  Therefore my view still stands after giving careful consideration to all the replies

  Next time after your careful consideration of all the replies you may want to give a considered response! With posts such as the last it is clear that you could be proud of being a "high profile media spokesman" in the JW world but not in the freethinking world

  Unfortunatley you tend to reason the same way the society does. Remember how it used a very weak case in the response to Dateline or Panorama? "Lets say a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old, that is considered child abuse" They used that example to try and overshadow their guilt and unreasonableness, now take your example:

  Why? Take for example Bro Simpleton. Raised in the JW faith parents taught him at home, he pioneered as a teenager, left for bethel at the age of 21 appointed as an elder at 28 assigned to a congregation. Bro simpleton has had no outside influence what so ever all his life, totally cocooned in the faith the epitome of a loving elder.

  Why not instead take for example Brother Simpleton who was raised in the faith and had no outside influence YET still resigned his position because his loving heart could clearly see the abuse of the other ignorant elders who thought they were doing gods will?

  There are many elders who have left that were raised in it and didnt have outside influences. The fallacy here is assuming that it takes "Outside influences" for those type of elders to wake up, in reality it takes nothing more than a look around on the inside to see how bad things can get when a few men are given authority over the flock. Being on the inside and overlooking the abuse doesnt merit the respect of having a loving heart, its not a loving heart that can overlook or partake in the abuses, its a hardened heart.

  Have I slammed all the elders? If I have I didnt intend too, but I do still have more respect for an elder that says "I am wrong" than for those who try to save face by blaming the GB for all their wrongs. Dont you?

  Brummie
• 

  MARTINLEYSHON

  Brummie

  I am rather surprised and sorely disappointed at your dissection of my latest post. You appear to be holding some sort of inner anger than one could only describe as self destructive. I fear for the worse in you. In my original post I said

  There is an inference that these ones ( elders ) can think for themselves, they cannot.

  Lets be honest and without fear of contradiction the majority of Elders are scared shitless of loosing their coveted position,

  These men cant think for themselves, they are not allowed to.

  It is quite simple read between the lines please, have the wisdom of a sound mind. When I referred to the elders who cannot think for them-selves do you not think that I was referring to member elders within their respective congregations? Of course that is the case. One cannot argue with that.

  The above statement would not apply to Circuit level and above. These men will be held more accountable why? Simply put; they have the knowledge of the inner workings of the society.

  Brummie please be assured that at the time I was very proud to be chosen to represent Jehovahs Witnesses in the Wales Region, and of course chair the meetings with some 50 or more Brothers and Sisters that were on my team; covering Media, Academia, Medical issues and so forth. This was a great privilege to have I was the first in to be appointed and the first to attend a course at bethel; but after my training at it opened my eyes to the inner workings of the cult.

  No longer could I lie for them or mislead the public with my well thought out and structured replies. Never answering a direct question being more political with my response than a JW spokesperson.

  Brummie I hope I have made my position crystal clear to you? Have I? For the avoidance of doubt allow me to clarify.

  1. Not all elders are accountable.

  2. The reprehensible ones are those who can freely think for themselves but choose not to for whatever reason.

  3. There are a lot of genuine elders in the borg.

  4. There are a number of elders who are simply the epitome of evil.

  I trust that this clarifies my position, as the light gets brighter and brighter.

  Martin
• 

  Pathofthorns

  It is funny how many xjw's that were once elders still sound like elders. You know u can walk into a KH and usually within minutes pick out who the elders are and of those who the dominant and influential ones are. You can sort of spot the same thing on these discussion boards. These guys have just been JW's too long and I wonder if they can ever change who they really are. Raised and bred in a culture of male dominance and submission to fake authorities and where priviledge and prestige is attatched to rank and position.

  Rarely have i ever known an elder to say "I was wrong and I'm sorry and I'm ashamed" and I think it is too much to expect xjw former elders to do any more than pass the buck most of the time too.

  Path

  Edited by - Pathofthorns on 4 October 2002 7:18:38
• 

  hillary_step

  Path....lol

  And rarely have I heard a publisher say "I was wrong and I'm sorry and I'm ashamed". Can you not understand that many people are still trying hard to come to terms with why they were drawn into the WTS web in the first place, let alone trying to work out how to make amends for the life they led as JW's. We all voluntarily became ensnared by a system beyond our control, but which came to control us. Each of us need to apologize to ourselves before we can perform the public apology you seem to have established as the touch-stone of true XJWism.

  You may have found the perfect station to pontificate from Path, but I have yet to read an apology from your good-self for supporting the system that spawned so many influential elders, who it must be acknowledged were given their influence by the very people they came to dominate.

  Sorry Path, you express an altogether a too simplistic view of this scenario. Cannot run with you on this one.

  HS
• 

  Pathofthorns

  You have never seen publishers crying in the back rooms in front of you while you and 2 other guys were trying to determine his or her repentance with their "everlasting life" hanging in the balance telling you they were "sorry and ashamed"? Being a publisher is a life of being sorry and ashamed.. being made to feel guilty by the "theocratic elite".

  I'm sure you were one of the better elders HS who tried to lean toward mercy. But I don't believe most publishers viewed elders in the same light as others or acted "normally" around most of them. They simply grew out of touch with the publisher "class" and I don't believe many xjw former elders can even comprehend how many xjws feel for how they were treated by elders.

  I have stated my shame many times for my part in the arrangement and I still feel sick to think of some moments where I hurt someone. I also have already acknowledged that I am in all probablity being unreasonable and biased in this thread. But I still can state my biased opinions because you can bet there are lots that feel the same.

  I have to congratulate former elders like the recent post by Elon14 where they at least accept responsibility for what they did and have the courage to offer an apology to any he hurt by his position or those hurt by everything he represented. That's received alot better than the innitial post of this thread crying the blues that we are "attacking" elders and that they shouldn't be somehow held accountable for the hurt they caused.

  Path
• 

  MARTINLEYSHON

  Path

  You are out of order. I can without fear of contradiction say that as a former elder, there was no other group of people that were made to feel guilty on a daily basis than we were. I was fed up with the guilt of have you

  Read your daily Text

  Have you shepherded this month

  Are you on the field ministry setting the lead

  Do you what the list goes on and on. I dont know your background so I am unable to comment further.

  martin
• 

  HoChiMin

  Path;

  These guys have just been JW's too long and I wonder if they can ever change who they really are.

  Good generalization, youll go far with that.

  HCM
• 

  hillary_step

  Path,

  Everybody was complicit in this universal crime. Without publishers to give elders the power they had over them there would of course have been no elders.

  I sat through the night holding the hand of many dying JW's, watching the dawn break with alcoholics against the wall, endeavored to ease the life of young JW's strapped to the mast of fanatical parents, paid for poorer families to put their children through decent schools, given work to literally scores of out of work JW's and I was certainly not alone in trying my hardest to deal with those in my care with decency, honor and integrity and above all honesty, throughout all this grappling with an unworkable system that it has to be noted is kept afloat not by elders, but by publishers. I took very little from the system, but gave my all, and I know many others who gave and are still giving their all within the system.

  I can and will admit to the whole world of XJWs that as an elder I did not lie for the WTS, but always strove to put the Christian spirit above the spirit of the WTS, even to the point of being removed as an elder for doing so.

  As a person trying their best to work within the confines of the theological equivalent of a tin of sardines my conscience is clear where my actions as an elder are concerned, and I have nothing to apologize for. The person that I do need to apologize to is myself, for I still have not forgiven myself for being drawn into the WTS web for so many long years. Perhaps I never will.

  Best regards - HS

  Edited by - hillary_step on 4 October 2002 12:16:45
• 

  jst2laws

  Path,

  I was determined to stay out of this thread. Had enough last time around. But then it didn't take long to draw Amazing back out of the shadows. This topic nearly broke his spirit last time but this board has a much better atmosphere now. I'm glad to see this rational discussion of an often emotional topic.

  I appreciate everyone's perspective here, and have always highly respected yours. Bottom line (as far as my worthless opinion goes) is all JW's are duped at one time. Those who wake up and are good people eventually leave. Those who wake up but are not good people stay for not so honorable reasons. It is the same for the JW's who become elders.

  We could debate the higher probability that elders should wake up because of the Crap they see that the publishers do not see. But the real issue is not what percentage come to their senses, but what do they do at that point and why. Only they can answer that. I personally believe their is a great number of X-elders here who are really good men. And maybe that is why they are here, because even as elders they were good men. The good men who wake up eventually LEAVE.

  As I think back there was more than one occasion that as an elder I had blood on my hands. One in particular was when I was scooping congealed blood and brain tissue off the bathroom floor of one of our families. I did this because I wanted to help my sister who's husband had shot himself. For the same reason I conducted the funeral service through a stream of tears for her three year old son whom her husband had murdered that same night. These people needed help and I like many others wanted to help. We wanted to help people NOT because we were 'appointed servants'. But we were 'appointed servants' because we wanted to help people.

  The need to help only intensifies when we finally realize we are part of a hurtful system. Many of us went through that futile period of trying to metigate damage from the inside.

  I like the way HS put it:

  I can and will admit to the whole world of XJWs that as an elder I did not lie for the WTS, but always strove to put the Christian spirit above the spirit of the WTS, even to the point of being removed as an elder for doing so.

  Those who live by Christian principles eventually run into trouble, especially with CO's. Then they are either removed as elders or they resign. Some of them end up here. Some of them still want to help people .

  Jst2laws

  Damn HS,

  I want you to write a book, YOU HEAR?
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I'll concede I should have softened my posts a bit more to have made them more reasonable. I generally had good experiences with the elders and I feel they were good men. It has been saddening though to see these men many times become men I am ashamed of when their backs were to the wall. Many times it was me watching elder friends hurt other friends and trying to make some sense of how this injustice happened in God's organization and stupid me would help them pick up the pieces and carry on in the "truth".

  When I watched the elders on the Panoramma video or the Australian program on child abuse, or when I think of what sort of men would have had the heart to disfellowship such good persons such as Barb and Joe Anderson or when I saw the heartless elders at Vicki Boer's trial it made me very upset to read a post saying how wrong it was to "attack" these men.

  I don't see how any former elder can come here to a place of so much hurt and then try to minimize the expressions of hurt and anger against these men for what they have suffered at their hands. I found the opening post to this thread offensive and was presenting the other side (maybe the other extreme side? smile)

  I don't expect former elders to feel guilty and apologize constantly for the past. I do understand the spell we were all under. But to deliberately minimize and seek to excuse it or to try to tell hurt people they can't express that anger and pain towards elders and that only the GB is a fair target, I think that is not reasonable either.

  The subject is played out to death I guess at this point. Thanks for playing guys.. No hard feelings

  Path