Are we wrong to attack the Elders?

by MARTINLEYSHON 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • HoChiMin


    I was an elder for ten years and I know what I would've done if litigation were to be brought against me personally. When newly appointed I thought I had the backing of god (the society), how ignorant. After a while it becomes apparent they will sell you out in seconds like dog waste.

    Also remember almost all would sacrifice there children to as we now know a false blood doctrine. So is trying to save ones position as an elder even questionable? : Give up your position and kill your kid? Keep your position and kill your kid? Kill your kid and keep your position? It all sounds so foolish in that context. My point is, mind control like the WT dispenses has no logic it is only to serve those at the top. The majority believe it is a loving god that will bless them with eternal bliss, uhh so the can study things for ever... so remain stupid now.

    I get sick just thinking about it ROUND and ROUND it goes. Belief in the WT version of god is evil, because the WT version of god is evil.


  • UnDisfellowshipped
    Matthew 23:14: "But woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men; for you don't enter in yourselves, neither do you allow those who are entering in to enter.
    Matthew 23:15: Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves.
  • Brummie

    Interesting to see how former elders have responded to this. Has it occurred to you that you would see all the elders you knew through the eyes of a fellow elder, favourably. We all felt we were only trying to please God when we were inside the camp, this would apply to some of the GB as well, we all looked upon each other favourably. But how did we all look to those on the outside? Like a bunch of self righteous bigots, why? Because we were.

    "Stop attacking these lambs"

    You will have an hard job trying to convince all those on the outside how lamb like the scared sh**less elders are, though Im sure they all think themselves as lamb-like and would be seen as being lamb -like by those on the inside. Unfortunately they only have themselves to blame for the reputation they have got on the outside and therefore must be big and brave enough to take as much bashing as they give.

    Your definition of so called "good freinds" is quite surprising...How good is it for an friend to break down in tears while disfellowshipping you? It would be like shooting you in the head and tearfully apologising for not missing.

    Are we wrong to attack elders? ...We should all forgive a repentant elder when he says sorry, but blaming the GB for our past actions is not repentance, its almost a refusal to accept any wrong. The GB practice this same policy of using the elders as scapegoats.....are they Godly for doing this?

    Perhaps I am looking at this wrongly, but are we not all personally responsible for allowing ourselves to be used as pawns? Elders are all adults, its not like they are children who had no choice, if you were not striving to be an elder you wouldnt have been made one, thats WT policy .

    I personally wouldnt hold it against anyone who left that they had been an elder, its good to hear of them leaving, but its far more humble to say "I was wrong" than to say "It was their fault"


    garybus: .....The elders dispense with 40,000 to 60,000 men, women, and children every year.
  • hillary_step


    You make some important points.

    Perhaps I am looking at this wrongly, but are we not all personally responsible for allowing ourselves to be used as pawns? Elders are all adults, its not like they are children who had no choice, if you were not striving to be an elder you wouldnt have been made one, thats WT policy

    I have to say that throughout my life as a JW I did not meet one man who was not striving to be an elder. I met many who said that claimed that they were not, but that was usually those who had tried and failed who were outspoken in this regard.

    I can only speak for myself. I state again that I knew many honest hardworking elders who tried to do their best in trying circumstances. I also knew many elders who were and are selfish, dogmatic 'little men', who have no hold on self-value in life but what they chose to foist over their hapless parishioners.

    I also know and knew many publishers who fit this description exactly, perhaps Brummie you were / are one of them. Believe it or not I know many CO's and DO's who also fit these broad descriptions, you see JW's are underneath it all are just people! Heavily conditioned beyond natural inclinations, bent out of shape by a practiced and ritualized arrogance, but people just the same.

    Might I even say that I know many XJW;s who fit the above descriptions, at least in some way or the other in their lives.

    I presume that you were never appointed as an elder. I put it to you that if your are a man and alive it would have been something that you would have viewed as an honor at one stage in your life. Self analysis and honesty should lead us to a position of understanding not judgment.

    The retrospective view that some have of their past lives as JW's on this Board sometimes, imho, reaches the same heights of self-deception as does the WTS own revisionist view of its past history.

    If we wish to be truly objective surely we should strive to put the WTS in the same position as any other religion in our vision and ask ourselves whether the depth of our ire would be quite as pronounced if we saw all these things happening in another religion, after all Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists also have a heirarchy etc. etc.

    Best regards - HS

    Edited by - hillary_step on 2 October 2002 23:8:10

  • Farkel


    : I see a number of board members alluding to the elders as antagonists. This is amoral.

    It's hard to get to the rest of your stuff when you make such nonsensical statements. Your argument is this:

    Someone claims elders are antagonists.

    Therefore, they are amoral (without any morals whatsoever).

    To put it another way, "someone who makes any claim that elders are antagonists are without any morals whatsoever."

    You're talking Dub-speak. Here's why: say that elders ARE antagonists (do you deny that all of them are not?). Then the claim that elders are antagonists is true, is it not?

    To put it yet another way, say that elders are NOT antagonists and board members state that they are. The staters of such are wrong. The staters also happen to be well-intentioned, albeit wrong. They love people, they take care of their children and love them and they give what they can to help others. Are they "amoral" then? Since the mighty Watchtower Printing Corporation has been wrong in virtually every prediction they've made for 125 years, are they "amoral" too? Or are they "just imperfect assholes?" If they are the latter, then why do people give them more slack than people who make blanket statements about elders that are probably not correct overall?

    Here's my simple argument:

    Some elders are assholes.

    ALL of the Governing Body who will not step forward to help the people they oppress are assholes.

    Elders are trained and forced to conform to the rules made by ALL of the governing body.

    Therefore, all of the governing body are the worst assholes imaginable because they oppress and hurt people.

    Debate THAT!

    Your argument stinks and I've just shown why it does.


    Edited by - Farkel on 3 October 2002 1:53:4

  • Brummie

    HS I appreciate your posts, agree with many of those of yours I have read.

    In this instance I think almost everyone is right even though opinions are in conflict.

    If someone here has been hurt by the elders then only that person can forgive the elder, we cannot forgive the elders for wrongs that they have done to someone else, its up to those on the receiving end to decide whether they want to respond positively or negatively to the abuse dished out by naive elders who think they are being godly. Imagine someone unjustly acts towards Martin and I step in and say I forgive you for the unjust treatment you just dished out on Martin, now lets put it all behind us and move on happilywho do I think I am to go around forgiving on Martins behalf? God!

    For me personally, I forgave the elders and the GB for the trauma their practice and doctrine inflicted upon my family and I mentally, spiritually and emotionally. But I cannot forgive them for wrong they have done to others, I dont have the right to and neither does anyone else have the right to suggest that WT victims should not vent at the elders who handled their case. People go on the attack when they are mistreated; instead of defending the elders it could be more constructive to give everyone the space to get it off their chest. To say that The elders are only human and we need to understand them is only agreeable if we can also see those venting as being only human too. They are the ones that have had a raw deal and need understanding, sometimes we cannot justify the elders no matter how sincere or deluded they are. We need to recognise that even sincere elders leave behind a trail of victims.

    In my opinion the most attacking post was ironically the first post by martin, he accused them of being sh**t scared and practically dummies who are going around hurting people ignorantly, well let any one of us go and ask an elder if that isnt a blatant attack on them! Ask them to read Martins post and to comment on whether they think it was a good defence for their ignorance. They are so self-righteous they wouldnt even read it anyway, but assuming they did they would see his as being just as offensive as anyone elses. He sounds like a nice enough guy, and I do appreciate his comments, but its hard for an observer to understand how someone can constantly punch a person on the nose and yet for that person to stand there and be nice to themits an unrealistic view to have of anyone.

    Unwittingly, by defending the elders against the attacks Martin attacked them and then gave people the platform to begin to attack by infuriating them:

    Now I know this post is going to infuriate some of you who have been on the receiving end of unjust elders, however before you reply think of the vein in which this post is threaded.


    Im not infuriated at all but the vein the thread was posted was should we attack all the elders just because some of them are unjust. I believe all elders are unjust, how can we expect a crooked organisation to produce just elders a bad tree does not produce good fruit. They are a product of evil regardless of how nice the disguise turns out to be. Anyone who is just in there will eventually leave, But they wont leave until they see themselves for what they are and accept personal responsibility for supporting an organisation that is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    Name me even one elder that was just and then define Just and see if he fits the description. Justice is built on truth, elders are built on the errors of the Org.

    Lots of Organisations have a hierarchy that practices like the Watchtower, and each one of them is wrong, and should be prepared to be told.

    Shared respectfully, Brummie

  • Pathofthorns

    Great post Brummie


  • JT

    this is an interesting post and there really is no easy answer, but i will say this,being a Former Society Man, not just an Elder - i have somewhat a different perspective

    in my exp the avg elder is about as dumb as a door nail when it comes to how policy and rules are made. while there are some who serve out of position, most of the elders i know served feeling that it was a reflection of their appreciation of spiritual things

    as a little kid i was told that jehovah wanted me to reach out, so to have the desire to serve was not out wanting to showboat but out of a desire to help, and like many elders i tried to help, the problem is THE SYSTEM makes it impossible.

    I believed in the FDS concept and therefore WHAT WAS IN PRINT was as if it was from god himself.

    the entire manner in which jw are taught really goes to the heart and soul of a matter

    a few weeks ago the thread about if someone dies did we ask WAS IT A WITNESS-

    shows how we are able to literally overlook other folks and not have a second thought about it

    when i was a kid my mom and the 4 of us were treated like shit cause my mom was a single parent with an unbelieving husband, on sunday we would hear about the gathering that we didn;t get invited to on Sat and that shit hurt-

    my mom would go out in service and she was made to work with her 4 little black kids, i always had to work with my sister, here i was 12, 13 and my sister was 8 or 9 taking doors while my other 2 younger bro where with my mom

    she got very little encouragement

    my mom was a good looking woman and many elders wives felt that my mom wanted their husbands - when in fact she was trying to leave my dad and they were advising

    sister stay cause YOU CAN WIN HIM OVER WITHOUT A WORD-

    so i made up my mind that if i ever was an elder i would never treat single women and kids like that

    so i always made a point to invite a single parent or their kids with me and Lady "C" whenever i gave a talk- after awhile the kids would come up and ask, can i go with you on the next talk-

    and they would go and have their mag lesson prepared and they would comment like they never did back home

    i tried to make the truth something for young folks to love, i saw in the hood what happened to young black men -in jail -selling drugs, young ladies getting knocked up at 13 and 14 and so Lady "C" and i tried to do something- we started a bowling day ONE SAT A MONTH - we were having over 70 folks out in service ( EVERYONE KNOWS YOU CAN;T PLAY IF YOU DON'T GO IN SERVICE) SMILE

    even old folks were coming even though they didn't play THE FRIENDS JUST WANTED TO ENJOY A LITTLE OF LIFE

    WELL the CO rolls in and we got shut down as he told me if that many folks can go bowling then they can support Afternoon Witnessing --DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOU JUST CAN'T DO NOTHING - we had over 40 single women in our hall 25-45 hungry women looking for a man (OK I had to go there-smile)

    anyway my wife was having a sorta "Ladies"night out once a month on friday

    so 15-20 of the girls would go out to a fridays, red lobster, etc and they would eat drink and yea talk about men, but Hell NO!!! - they got turned in by some Prune of a sister and once again we got another wonderful activity SHUT DOWN

    IN my exp the vast majority of elders were just FLUNKIES most never even knew what half of the wt policies were on issues many would just shoot from the hip and off the top of thier heads

    so even by wt standards they were subpar, but of course they were allowed to stay-

    once an elder comes to know what we know and they then say stuff like

    I ain't rocking the boat, or as one elder who knows this org is bogus told me

    why bite the hand that feeds you-

    once a person learns the real deal and decides to stay FOR THEIR POSITION AND TITLE AND GLORY - THEN THEY SHOULD BE DOGGED

    but as we have seen over and over, some stay to try and change things or help others get out and after awhile they end up leaving realizing that there is only so much that you can really do to help and reform is a joke REFORM TO WHAT??

    OTHERS stay cause they have an exit date and plan in the works

    for us we planned a 6 month drift program - smile

    so are elders responisible, i would say yes and esp those who know the deal like your jr browns and many local men who are well aware of the real deal

    but in my view if there are 95,000 congo 4-6 elders per hall you got 500,000 plus elders

    how many of them really are sharp enough to figure out the real deal, the vast majority are "Cheese Cracker Men" anyway so this elder stuff is the best thing since slice bread for them-

    i read so many post up here and in most cases we are talking about elders in Western countries and i just shudder to think what it must be like to be in some Backward country, 3rd world whatever you want to call it and you got the Cheese Cracker men in charge where your top elder has a 5th grade education

    you know the local jw are in deep DO DO

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    The real problem lies with the structure of the organization, which over time has ratcheted up human authority to the point of being virtually paramilitary in aspect. The vertical layers of authority are a far cry from the ``horizontal'' egalitarian brotherhood Jesus intended.

    Layers upon layers of autocratic bosses are superimposed on the bottom strata of rank-and-file, and their weigh is crushing all iniitave of action and freedom of conscience. However highly these ``servants'' estemm their spirituality; they lack the faith to simply step and and let Heaven rule the congregation.


    Extremely interesting replies to this post. May I just for clarity explain my use of the word amoral, which seems to have caused some consternation with some of you.

    Amoral Means: Lacking Ethical Principles or without Principles.

    If we are going to tarnish all elders with the same brush, are we no worse than the dubs who tarnish all of us as apostates? I for one am not an apostate; I do not consider myself as such however by my very presence on this site I am considered or would be considered as such would I not? Not by board members perhaps but certainly by the dubs.

    Therefore my view still stands after giving careful consideration to all the replies, if some of us are going to put all elders into the same category as unjust men who can think for themselves then that is an amoral act on our part.

    Why? Take for example Bro Simpleton. Raised in the JW faith parents taught him at home, he pioneered as a teenager, left for bethel at the age of 21 appointed as an elder at 28 assigned to a congregation. Bro simpleton has had no outside influence what so ever all his life, totally cocooned in the faith the epitome of a loving elder.

    Would it not be punitive to judge this Bro in the same way as you would judge an elder who has wronged you? Of course it would.

    We all know that there is a furtive body within the Borg; that goes without question. Therefore we need to be pragmatic in our approach rather than accusatory.

    Message to Farkel:

    You concern me.


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