Did Christ exist?

by uncle_onion 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • jelly
    jelly
    can satisfy your desire to practice this popular American pastime of being constantly offended by everyone and everything

    As an American (or 'merican' as you would say) I can assure you I and the vast majority of people I know do not fit your particular prejudice JanH. As a matter of fact I am not even offended by you ignorance expressed in the above quote, when people can only attack through generalizations it just shows they have no real argument.

    I think what newlight2 was trying to say is that maybe we should be respectful of each other. I know I personally do not have a fragile little ego that breaks up when I encounter a differing view point but I do expect the person to respect me, I think Malcom X said it best when he said he refused to have any respect for someone that has no respect for him.

    By the way glib little justifications do not excuse people from acting with some class and tact.

    Jelly (Ugly merican class – yeehaawww)

  • uncle_onion
    uncle_onion

    Ginny tosken

    I have read that quote that you posted. It all seems credible but where is the author getting their proof from? Is there any references to the material that they quote from so that we can check it for ourselves?

    I have had 28 years of being told what such and such says, so this time around I want to check the sources myself.

    UO

    BTW the book arrived yesterday, cant wait to read it!

  • NewLight2
    NewLight2

    Hiya Uncle Onion,

    So can anyone recomend a good book that deals with all this please?

    Jesus - The Great Debate by Grant R Jeffrey
    Frontier Reseach Publications, Inc. c/r 1999

    Chapter 5 is entitled "The Evidence from the Ancient Christian Tombs"
    I'm sure that either amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com would have it.

    NewLight2

  • idaho
    idaho

    Jan

    you say;

    There are countless examples of Christian frauds, making up evidence where there is none. While I don't want to dismiss out of hand such a thing, I think it's extremly suspicious if such a remarkable found would not become more widely known, and in more credible sources.

    The use of Prof. Sukenik's name does not easen this suspicion. Sukenik was one of the first archeologists to learn about the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. He was an old man then, if I'm not much mistaken, and he's very unlikely to be alive still. The finds are nowehere dated. Famous name and the absense of actual details of where and when does not sound credible to me.

    Concerning Jerusalem Christian Review:
    I'm well aware are the Societies misuse of "quotes" so I'm quoting
    the following with a note of caution. I cannot at the moment verify
    the crediblity of the person quoted or the quote itself. In fact this is taken from JCR own "braglist".
    http://www.christian.edu/others.htm

    "It is with whole hearted support that I commend this innovative publication. The information contained in the Jerusalem Christian Review is of extreme interest to all those who have a regard for the Bible and biblical times." - Dr. Yoram Ben-Porat, President, Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

    The president of the H.U.J. seems like a credible source.

    Eliezer Sudenik:
    The following is quoted from the reknown Britannica

    http://www.britannica.com/seo/e/eliezer-sukenik/

    Sukenik, Eliezer b. Aug. 12, 1889, Bialystok, Pol., Russian Empired. Feb. 28, 1953, Jerusalem, Israel in full ELIEZER LIPA SUKENIK, Polish-born Israeli archaeologist who identified the antiquity of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
    Sukenik settled in Palestine in 1912 and was drawn to archaeology while studying at the Hebrew Teachers Seminary and the French Biblical and Archaeological School at Jerusalem. After earning degrees at the University of Berlin (A.B., 1923) and Dropsie College, Philadelphia (Ph.D., 1926), he returned to Palestine. He became associated with the Hebrew University as field archaeologist (1926), subsequently becoming lecturer (1935) in and then professor (1938) of the archaeology of Palestine. He was also director of the Museum of Jewish Antiquities.
    Sukenik's numerous excavations and investigations led to remarkable discoveries. He found remnants of an important Hyksos fortification at Tell Jerishe and directed the clearance of the Third Wall in Jerusalem (1925-27), later publishing, with L.A. Mayer, The Third Wall of Jerusalem (1930). Sukenik's publication The Ancient Synagogue of Beth Alpha (1932) made famous the mosaic pavement he had unearthed there and expanded the frontiers of the history of Jewish art. Sukenik's keen interest in numismatics led to his identification of the oldest Jewish coins of the period of Persian domination. His familiarity with the script of the epitaphs of the Jewish necropolis in Jerusalem, dating from the last century (c. 30 BC-ad 70) of the Second Temple, enabled him to recognize that the scrolls found in the first Qumran cave in 1947 dated from that same period. His book The Dead Sea Scrolls of the Hebrew University was published posthumously in 1955.

    I feel you are trying to cast unnecessary doubt on a org/person
    which/who doesn't necessarily agree with your own thesis. No hard feeling meant, this is just my impression in your post.

    So bias aside ;), can the archeological findings in fact substanciate their claim?

    Idaho

  • JanH
    JanH

    idaho,

    The president of the H.U.J. seems like a credible source.


    Yes, except that he's dead, so it can't be checked that the quotation is correct (again, conveniently!). Also, he's not that credible a source to begin with. He is an economist, hardly a relevant background to evaluate archeology journals. It simply sounds extremely unlikely that such a figure would recommend this allegeded journal. It is obviously not peer reviewed. It does not cite references. It has a web page that looks like it was made by teenagers. No serious academic, no matter what field, would recommend such a rag.

    The quotes you brought up just confirms what I said earlier. Claiming that such a revolutionary piece of archeological evidence has not surfaced in anyof the world's well-renoweed journals, and neither in the countless scholarly discussions of the historical Jesus, but only in a rag nobody has heard of, is far beyond serious consideration.

    If you insinuate I brought doubt on the credibility of Prof. Sukenik, you are not arguing honestly. I don't think he ever had anything to do with this; this journal just engages in dishonest name dropping. Since he died in 1953: please explain how this amazing discovery has remained hidden to all but this strange journal for half a century!

    The facts I have brought up is more than sufficient to cast doubt on the idea that this artifact even exists. Remember Ron Wyatt? He is (in)famous for, for example, claiming that he has found the remains of the Egyptian army on the bottom of the Red Sea. Of course it is just his invention. Yet, many Christians believe it, because they want to believe. This looks like the same thing over again.

    - Jan
    --
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
    -- Albert Einstein

  • idaho
    idaho

    Jan

    Man, you're good! You live up to your reputation , and
    that's positively meant from my side.
    Again I'll have to get back to you - I don't have enough
    space in my HD (head) to handle your questions immediately.

    PS I think Ron Wyatt was in league by himself. Perhaps not alone
    in your eyes?

    Idaho

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Uncle Onion,

    Here are the footnotes for the excerpts I posted. I will post the sentence or phrase just before the footnote and then the reference.

    I certainly understand your wanting to check these things for yourself. It’s odd, but I study the Bible more now than I ever did as a JW. What’s even stranger is that I actually enjoy it.

    As for books about Jesus, wasasister highly recommended A Marginal Jew by John P. Meier. I have not yet read it, but perhaps she can tell you more about it. Looking at Amazon, I see that there are now two volumes:

    A Marginal Jew : Rethinking the Historical Jesus : The Roots of the Problem and the Person
    and
    A Marginal Jew : Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Anchor Bible Reference Library/Volume Two:Mentor, Message, and Miracles).

    I have also been wanting to look into the work of the Jesus Seminar. There are several books by Robert Walter Funk available.

    Have fun reading!

    Ginny

    The Book of Enoch said in the 2nd century BCE that Yeshua or Jesus was the secret name given by God to the Son of Man (a Persian title), and that it meant “Yahweh saves.”
    1
    Smith, Homer. Man and His Gods. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1952: 193.

    In northern Israel the name was written Ieu.
    2
    Albright, William Powell. Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan. New York: Doubleday & Co., 1968: 262.

    It was the same as Ieud or Jeud, the “only-begotten son” dressed in royal robes and sacrificed by the god-king Isra-El.
    3
    Frazer, Sir James G. The Golden Bough. New York: Macmillan, 1922: 341.

    Greek versions of the name were Iasion, Jason, or Iasus—the name of one of Demeter’s sacrificed consorts, killed by Father Zeus after the fertility rite that coupled him with his Mother.
    4
    Graves, Robert. The Greek Myths (2 vols.). New York: Penguin Books Inc., 1955: 1, 89.

    Iasus signified a healer or Therapeuta, as the Greeks called the Essenes, whose cult groups always included a man with the title of Christos.
    5
    Rose, H.J. Religion in Greece and Rome. New York: Harper & Bros., 1959: 111.

    The literal meaning of the name was “healing moon-man,” fitting the Hebrew version of Jesus as a son of Mary, the almah, or “moon-maiden.”
    6
    Graves, Robert. The Greek Myths (2 vols.). New York: Penguin Books Inc., 1955: 2, 396

    “The Semitic religions practiced human immolations longer than any other religion, sacrificing children and grown men in order to please sanguinary gods. In spite of Hadrian’s prohibition of those murderous offerings, they were maintained in certain clandestine rites.”
    9
    Cumont, Franz. Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism. New York: Dover Publications, 1956: 119.

    The names of the apostles attached to these books were fraudulent. The books were composed after the establishment of the church, some as late as the 2nd century A.D. or later, according to the church’s requirements for a manufactured tradition.
    10
    Smith, Homer. Man and His Gods. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1952: 179-80.

    Most scholars believe the earliest book of the New Testament was 1 Thessalonians, written perhaps 51 A.D. by Paul, who never saw Jesus in person and knew no details of his life story.
    11
    Enslin, Morton Scott. The Literature of the Christian Movement. New York: Harper & Bros., 1938: 233-38.

    Like Adonis, Jesus was born of a consecrated temple maiden in the sacred cave of Bethlehem, “The House of Bread.”
    12
    Frazer, Sir James G. The Golden Bough. New York: Macmillan, 1922: 402.

    The skeptical Celsus noted that . . . “Each has the convenient and customary spiel . . .”
    14
    Smith, Morton. Jesus the Magician. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978: 117.

    Turning water into wine at Cana was copied from a Dionysian ritual practiced at Sidon and other places . . .
    16
    Smith, Morton. Jesus the Magician. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978: 25, 120.

    Many centuries earlier, priestesses at Nineveh cured the blind with spittle, and the story was repeated of many different gods and their incarnations.
    18
    Gifford, Edward S., Jr. The Evil Eye. New York: Macmillan, 1958: 63.

    The ability to walk on water was claimed by Far-Eastern holy men ever since Buddhist monks praised it as the mark of the true ascetic. . . .
    22
    Bardo Thodol (W.Y. Evans-Wentz, trans.). London: Oxford University Press, 1927: 158.

    The cynical Pope Leo X exclaimed, “What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!”
    59
    de Camp, L. Sprague. The Ancient Engineers. New York: Ballantine Books, 1960: 399.

    . . . Initial incredulousness is soon converted into belief in a probability and eventually smug assurance.
    60
    Arens, W. The Man-Eating Myth. New York: Oxford University Press, 1979: 89.

  • JanH
    JanH

    Thanks, idaho.

    Take your time.

    What I forgot to say earlier, is that I think there may be some real archeological artifact behind this, and it's just been distorted (intentionally, or just through amateurish interpretation). But it's hard to know without exact references.

    - Jan
    --
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
    -- Albert Einstein

  • Welshman
    Welshman

    uncle onion,
    I found this to be a good book on the subject and an enjoyable read too.....'The Jesus Mysteries' by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy.Was the orinal Jesus a pagan god..?.....'A provocative,exciting and challenging book' quote by John Shelby Spong,Bishop of Newark.

    Regards Welshman

  • JAVA
    JAVA

    I attended a lecture by Bishop Spong about a year ago. After the lecture we talked for several minutes, and I found him an interesting scholar that has been a pain in the side to many religonist.

    As I was leaving he inquired of my religious background. When I told him he said, "The Watchtower has done a better job than any atheist group I know of in turning their children into atheists." He wasn't putting down atheists thinking by the comment, it was just his reflection about the Witnesses.

    --JAVA
    counting time at the Coffee Shop

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