Futility of being right (page 2)

nonjwspouse

My husband has this "affliction" with KNOWING he is correct about ...whatever... and will defend himself with " I just know" kind of statements.Which, of course, drive me batty..

He got a good reality dose of the absurdity of this recently in relation to a house selling finance deal he had made with a tenant. years ago when he was at the height of his arrogance ( and involved with studying and going to meetings) I would print out factual spreadsheets with all the numbers, amortization schedule, escrows, the exact amount that needed to be paid each month. He pulled out a little amortization book and insisted I was absolutely wrong, somehow, because he had to be correct, because he knew he was correct.

Ok whatever. By that time I was so emotionally battered from so many sides I gave up on that.The tenant is a Spanish speaker and I don't speak Spanish, so I was just done.

Fast forward to last week, when the tenant wants to pay off the entire loan this year. Ok, I go to the folder, bring out that amortization schedule, show him this tenants payments have not once covered the entire payment, but the tenant actually thinks about $90 each month was going straight into extra principle. He sits for a while still insisting I had to be wrong. I insist he prove it. Eventually, he actually does look into it and whaddaya know, unfortunately I was correct. The tenant owes us over $3k in insufficient back payments.

He was dumbfounded. I told him this is why each and every time you argue a point, you must be able to prove it. Back then he arrogantly refused to back up his argument. Last week, thankfully, something in him changed enough that he was willing to try to back up his point. It's awful, since this is such a big mistake on his part, and he will again sink further into the depression. But hey, I have no way to stop him from suffering consequences of his actions, nor should I stop it. It's just so difficult since we suffer ( financially) for them to.

The training instilled in him to insist he is correct, without having facts or even understanding why he thinks what he says is correct, really does spill over into all areas of his life.

CalebInFloroda

@LisaRose

Your words resonate with actually psychology on the matter.

The reason people often get into flame wars on the Internet or debates about religion in real life is because we are what we believe.

Our identity is wrapped up and supported by what we believe about the universe and our place in it. Any attack on this belief system is actually an attack on the individual's self (or at least their concept of what it means to be who they are). Naturally we would defend this, so part of the arguing in response is normal.

But more than often when people are taught to believe things about themselves that are not true or they do not truly believe, the individual may seek out opportunities to debate and engage in flame wars. This is actually arguing with one's self to convince the psyche that their new or current convictions about the universe and themselves in it are accurate (if I can argue them and "prove" them, then they are true).

The person who engages in this type of self-convicting arguemtation often doesn't know it. The signs that one is engaged in self-deception regarding their true motives in discussions can include some of the following:

1. Asking "innocent questions" only to attack and debate any comments that come from others as a result instead of showing a willingness to at least consider opposing views.

2. Claiming to engage in flame wars for fun or sport and nothing more.

3. Offering hateful and/or disrespectful speech instead of logic in replies (and being unable to tell the or admit that there is a difference).

4. Lengthy posts that consist of lengthy quotes from other sources in support of their views. (The type of lengthy post that does not draw you in and keep your attention, and is so lengthy only the author probably wants to read it.)

5. Believing other people really are interested in, care, and keeping up with what you are writing when in reality they are not.

Ruby456

jwdaughter, I've never known you to insist on you point being right. But in general I think people are always trying to establish norms of behaviour and thought. Governments also do this. in one study when people were told which group they belonged to they soon identified with that group even if they hadn't thought about themselves that way before.

I think children are very quick to notice when something is at odds with what they have been taught and I think when we are experiencing sudden change we sort of revert to that behaviour.

Vidiot

I'm wrong all the time.

In fact, I'm wrong right now.

CalebInFloroda

No you're not, Vidiot. You're not wrong. It's me who's wrong right now.

Wait...hmmm....

GrreatTeacher

How did I miss this thread?

I found it really freeing when I finally realized I didn't have to have an opinion on every little thing. Some things just aren't even worth expending thought over.

What's my opinion on whether bridge tolls should be raised to cover a deficit elsewhere?

Guess what? I don't have to have an immediate opinion and I can choose to just let it go and not devote any more thought to it. After all, we all have a limited daily cognitive capacity and I don't have to waste further energy on it if I choose not to.

Maybe I can instead think up a creative menu for dinner or save mental energy for the demands of my teenager.

My point is that you decide what to think about. You're in charge of your thoughts. You decide where and upon what to spend your mental and emotional energy.

And sometimes saying, "I don't know," is not only a valid, but a purposeful response.

This is why when they ask," paper or plastic?" I always just say, "It doesn't matter."

rebel8

I don't think you come across that way, jw daughter.

On the one hand, you're right, of course. Basic politeness is important.

On the other hand, respecting wackadoodle ideas/beliefs is not a good thing, in my observation. It gives credence and perpetuates the snake oil. Check out this article about the fact that ridicule is effective--very interesting.

Maybe a balance can be struck--respect the person, not the false belief.

JWdaughter

Thanks everyone. This week I have had a lift from just recognising this. It's freed me from dwelling on things that sap my focus. I'm putting energy back into some things that actually matter in real life. Learning and writing. I'm focused on listening. I'm learning things I never knew and actually hear my own thoughts with more clarity. Still scrambling to stay more open eared. Talked to a Korean airlift adoptee about her experience. Which is to say I listened. Fascinating woman, lots of insight. She's a narrative therapist.

Xanthippe

Leonardo da Vinci, artist, inventor and polymath wrote copious notes (many now reside at Windsor Castle for some strange reason). Among his ideas and sketches for inventions he wrote that everything has already been discovered, everything has already been done!

Which shocked me when you think of all we have discovered and invented since Leonardo's lifetime (1452 - 1519). I feel sure that one day we will look back at what we now know and howl with laughter at our present understanding of the world and the universe.

Edit: I actually have a great deal of affection for Leonardo because in my late twenties when I decided I was ignorant I thought I would start reading things that interested me. Art History was one of the subjects and Ancient Greece another. Soon after studying these subjects I reached my own crisis of conscience.

Xanthippe

I believe this fixation is more likely wed to highly competitive cultures than traditionally-oriented cooperative societies. In the latter, issues of right or wrong don't equivalently inform one's sense of self or identity. The ego may be shaped by other influences such as being honored, respected or altruistic.

Thank you for the link to the article in Psychology Today Oubliette, I really enjoyed reading it. Yes the sad thing is because of our need to get good grades to have a decent career and standard of living we learn to regurgitate what we learn at school and college to give the 'right' answers.

This atrophies our ability to think for ourselves and ruins our relationships because of our huge need to always be right. I found the description above of traditional societies based on cooperation rather than competition very thought provoking, especially the thought that ego can be shaped by honour, respect and altruism rather than ideas of right and wrong.

Futility of being right

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