Pack your bags - we're going on a GUILT TRIP! (page 3)

butalbee

Scully, my bags are backed...Where are we going? I'm all for a trip to Vegas or Altantic City....

I don't mind the word guilt if it is used in this context. If you feel guilt, that means you recognize you made a mistake and can correct it. Shame means you ARE the mistake. (borrowed from John Bradshaw).

Shame and shaming is what I read here on this thread. Toxic shame is the subject of another book by Susan Forward.

The important thing is to recognize what the game is and refuse to play.

I vote for Las Vegas.

Blondie

Scully

You're right, Blondie; "shame" is the name of the JW game. Guilt is a feeling of having done something wrong.

But look at the things JWs try to make us feel guilty or shamed about:

examining the beliefs we had as JWs and discovering for ourselves that they do not meet OUR standards (PS, it's ok for people of OTHER religions to do it, but NOT Witnesses!!)

when we were witnesses:

taking care of ourselves or our family, if it meant missing a meeting or a morning in service

getting a promotion at work = materialism, when it could really mean less overtime or just having more money to put in the contribution box

missing meetings for health reasons = refusing to partake of spiritual food and association

planning a family = selfishness for bringing a child into This Old System(tm) so close to Armageddon(tm)

getting an education = materialism = not putting the Kingdom first = lack of faith in the nearness of Armageddon(tm) = putting trust in This Old System(tm)

saving for retirement = putting trust in This Old System(tm)

All of these very NORMAL and PRACTICAL lifestyle choices are subject to scrutiny, and subsequently other JWs feel they have the authority (by virtue of their own self-denial) to criticize others for their choices. The shaming messages (guilt trips) are intended to make someone feel bad when, in fact, there is no reason for them to feel that way.

How many JWs are out there who didn't put away anything for their retirement? How many sold their homes and moved to where the need was great because they sincerely believed that the end was "just around the corner" and they needed to be out there trying to 'save' as many people as possible, otherwise they'd be "bloodguilty"?? How many put off surgery thinking that it was an act of faith and Jehovah will fix it in the New System, which is just around the corner?? How many denied themselves the "selfish" choice of having children - the ones who are supposed to look after you in your old age - and devoted their lives to the preaching work??

Guilt and shame were the tools the WTS used to persuade people to make those choices, and now the WTS has laughed all the way to the bank with the money donated to them by the same people who now have nothing to fall back on!!

Love, Scully

Dan-O

My favorite (and I still hear this from my uncle) is "You know, it's going to be so sad when your children are destroyed at Armageddon because YOU are no longer a Witness. Their lives are in your hands, Dan."

blondie

Imagine, Dan, worshiping a God that destroys little children forever because of their parents sins. Perhaps he is applying this scripture:

preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation." EXODUS 34:7

But ignoring these:

"Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin. DEUTERONOMY 24:16

The soul that is sinning?it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be. EZEKIEL 18:20

In explaining this contradiction, the WTS actually makes a case against the killing of children at Armageddon for the sins their fathers are 'individually' responsible for.

***

w88 2/1 p. 6 Does the Bible Contradict Itself? ***

Another seeming contradiction is found by comparing Exodus 34:7 with Ezekiel 18:20. The first text states that God would bring "punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons," while the latter states that "a son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father." Why do these texts appear to be contradictory? Because they are taken out of context. Examine the surrounding material and setting. It then becomes obvious that when God mentioned punishment as coming upon not only fathers but also sons and grandsons, he was speaking of what would result to Israelites as a nation if they sinned against him and were taken into captivity. On the other hand, when mentioning that a son would not be liable for the error of his father, he was speaking of personal accountability.

ChrisVance

The worst one I ever observed was at a district convention. A boy about six years old told his mother that he had a headache. She told me to sit quiet and pray and if he really loved jehovah his headache would go away. Good grief!

confusedjw

Let's not limit this as guilt is a great tool:

"Son, if you love me you'll get me a beer" - [son rolls eyes] -

"Okay if I have to get up I'm gonna cream ya" - [son flexes muscle]

"Get me a beer or I'll make you go back to the KH" -

AHHHHHHH the tast of beer

"What will I tell ****** ( a dear JW friend) when we're all in the new system and you aren't there?"

I had to reply "I'll give you a note you can pass it to him when you see him"

Pack your bags - we're going on a GUILT TRIP!

butalbee

blondie

Scully

Dan-O

blondie

ChrisVance

confusedjw

Xandria

mouthy

Gordy

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