A classic case of WT dishonesty.

by caspian 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • pomegranate

    >>All names are man-made inventions unless you speak in the tongues of angels.<<

    "YHWH" is not a man made invention, that is God's invention. So you are incorrect. What is a man made invention, is when men take that which God left as the truth, an unpronouncible name, and INDESCRIMINANTLY and WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION add letters to it to make it it pronouncible to MEN'S SATISFACTION. If God wanted YHWH pronouncible it would be so. Or are you of the belief that the supposed Jewish superstition was more powerful than God maintaining God's own name?

    Did you ever think that MAYBE the name was never pronouncible. Doesn't the God who's name is UNPRONOUNCIBLE by men sound like the true God? There is NO LABEL that will do justice to this being. The "name" of God is too magnificent to pronounce. Corrupt men trying to pronounce God's name, corrupts God's name. EVERY SINGLE TIME.


    >>Does that mean there should be no names in the Bible ?<<

    I believe your logic is faulty.

  • funkyderek
    Have you not read You Know's explanation regarding the justification for the particular vowels used in the name "Jehovah" when translating the Tetragrammaton? Until you have, you shouldn't be saying that it "can only be translated as lord."

    Yet again you're misunderstanding me, unintentionally I hope. I'm not talking about the Tetragrammaton,. I'm talking about the Greek word Kyrios which can only be properly translated "lord", but in the NWT is sometimes translated Jehovah, and not only when quoting from the Hebrew scriptures. In the earliest known Greek manuscripts, NO FORM OF THE DIVINE NAME APPEARS. You can postulate, as the Watchtower Society does, that every single copy of the Christian Greek Scriptures in their earliest form, is corrupt, and corrput only to the extent that it has removed the Divine Name and replaced it with Kyrios. There is no evidence for such a belief, but it's at least possible. However, that is not the job of a translator. A translator should translate the available text. Unfounded assumptions should be relegated to footnotes or appendices.

  • LDH

    Earnest says:

    All names are man-made inventions

    LIAR!!!! Once again, instead of answering the issue, you raise a red herring, a false argument, designed to take the conversation off track. Do you dare to put forth the idea that HUMANS named him JEHOVAH???

    Jehovah named himself! Did he not tell Moses "Tell them I am what I am" was his name?

    Who among man would DARE to assign a human's name to God?

    Oh yeah, the WBTS. I forgot.


  • Earnest


    You ask: "Did you ever think that MAYBE the name was never pronouncible."

    No, I never considered that. But having considered it now I don't think it feasible. If I think of Exodus 3:15 where God says to Moses "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, 'Jehovah the God of your forefathers...has sent me to you.' This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation" - Moses doesn't say I can't pronounce that Lord, what else can I tell them instead, does he? Nowhere in the almost 7000 times the name is used in the O.T. is there any suggestion people had problems pronouncing it. The shemah of Deuteronomy 6:4 has Moses saying: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." It has only been since the first century that most Jews have not pronounced his name...why should we imitate them rather than the faithful men of old?

    You say that YHWH is God's invention. But God didn't use a Roman alphabet in speaking to the Jews (in Hebrew or Greek). Presumably he spoke to Moses et al. in a language they could understand which would have been a man-made language, would it not? Do you think that when the angels address God in heaven they speak in Hebrew? What about other names that have been revealed to us. What of Michael the archangel? Is the correct pronunciation that used by Daniel or that used by John (in Revelation). What about Gabriel? Is the pronunciation he used in addressing Zechariah (Luke 1:19) the same as that in Daniel? Do you think Michael and Gabriel are addressed in Hebrew/Greek in heaven? But we have no problem translating them in English, do we ? Neither should we have problems with God's name without a need to be dogmatic about pronunciation. I think it more accurate to say if God had wanted us to be dogmatic about the pronunciation of his name then he would not have allowed it to become confused.

    Accurate translation requires a name to be translated as a name.


  • Earnest


    The point I am making is that Jehovah didn't speak English (at least not as far as we know). 'Jehovah' is the English equivalent of the Hebrew tetragrammaton and, as shown in a previous post, was unknown before the thirteenth century.

    But my argument also goes beyond that in saying that even in Hebrew it probably doesn't completely convey the sound of the name. It is four consonants in a Semitic alphabet to convey the sound, the name, that Moses heard from God. But my central argument is simply that accurate translation requires a name to be translated as a name.

    And your suggestion I was attempting to take the argument off-track is unworthy of you. Pomegranate had just written that "Jehovah is a man made invention". I replied all names are man-made inventions. I dont know what youre so angry about but dont take it out on me.


  • LDH


    you said

    But my central argument is simply that accurate translation requires a name to be translated as a name.

    And this is simply not true! There are certain words which are "untranslatable" in EVERY language. Every language has it's own idioms, inflections and expressions which when translated literally do not do the original text justice.

    I'm not upset at you at all, Earnest. I started this train of thought on this thread and on the other one regarding Jehovah's name, and I want to be sure that everyone reading these threads will see that Jehovah's Witnesses openly admit that they do not know what God's real name is.

    Now what gets me about this, is the fact that the Governing Body, aka The Faithful and Discreet Slave, has based the lives of millions of people on the fact that they alone speak for Jehovah, and yet they don't even know his damned name!!!!

    Doesn't this strike you as odd? Why won't any of you address THIS point? Why, if the FDS slave and Jehovah are so buddy buddy, doesn't he just call them and tell them what his name is?


  • simwitness
    There are certain words which are "untranslatable" in EVERY language.

    Well said, lisa.

    Oddly enough, this is absolutely true for the majority of PROPER NAMES.

    Even those that have "translations", the translated name is NOT the "name" of the original person.

    For example: Anthony and Antonio... while the name is the "same" as translated, if you called me "Antonio" I would not know you were addressing me, "Anthony".

    However, in nearly all Languages, a "Title" (GOD, LORD, God, Lord, etc...) almost allways means the same thing.

  • pomegranate

    Accurate translation requires a name to be translated as a name

    Accurate translation requires all the letters to be known so as to translate period. Since they are not all known, there can be no ACCURATE translation, whether it be a name, a place or thing.

    "YHWH" has always been the God with the unpronouncible name, because what his NAME represents CANNOT be encompassed by ANY WORD OF MAN. My proof is in the Book, clearly showing only a HEBREW LETTER SYMBOL of this God of Grandeur. Your proof is nowhere to be found.

    A God who's "name" is so brilliantly glorious, unattainably magnanimous and uncomprehendably magnificent, that it is UNABLE to be pronounced and uttered by filthy man, brings to rubble all gods with a man made name.

    That is the TRUTH God has left in the Book, that is the truth that is left in time. Yet corrupt men have to deny it. Why? Corrupt men reason in their puny minds, who can LOVE a God without a pronouncible name? We need a NAME to worship. If we don't have a name, we cannot worship GOD. God's "name" is His power, His glory, His Justice, His wisdom, His reputation. That is God's NAME.
    Men will say: What people could possibly worship a God with no name?

    One answer: Only the real children of that God can love the God who's name is beyond all linquistic sibilance. His children call Him Father and Daddy and Papa and Abba.

    His enemies give Him a name. The God who's name that cannot be uttered because of it's sheer incomprehensible grandeur makes gods with man made names so much dirt to be walked on. And they will be walked on.

    Go ahead, pronounce the name of the Creator for me will you? Which way shall you move your tongue? How much air should be behind each syllable? Part your lips this way or that? Where should we pause? Which sounds are correct to His ears? Which language that He made is closest to the correct enunciation? Is it Hebrew or something other? Tell me, do you know?

    Edited by - pomegranate on 16 August 2002 13:18:44

  • Earnest


    In answering your question I should clarify that I don't represent anyone but myself on this board. I don't represent the GB, or JWs or even the Pope...just me.

    Translation often does not do the original text justice. There is often word-play that cannot be conveyed and that quite often happens with the meaning of names. That does not mean we do not translate it. Every other name in the Bible is translated and often there is little resemblance to the original but there is no insistence that we stick to the Hebrew pronunciation. Why insist on that with Gods name? We all know what his name is: Yod He Waw He. Those are all the letters to his name. Hebrew didnt have vowels. So in English and in Latin the equivalent is JHVH. That is his name. How to pronounce it? You can argue over that endlessly.

    Let us suggest God addressed us in a booming voice from heaven and said "Hey guys, I dont like the way you mispronounce my name. In English it should be pronounced blah de blah, in Chinese it should be pronounced yin yang yong, in Russian it must be pronounced thus and so." You will still get pomegranates arguments "Which way shall you move your tongue? How much air should be behind each syllable? Part your lips this way or that? Where should we pause?" within hours of this sacred pronouncement.

    No...the name is conveyed by the consonants we know and their equivalent in various alphabets. Quite clearly God has allowed for variation in the way it is pronounced. The first English Bible translated it as "Jehovah" and that has been generally recognised as the English translation ever since. If you want to pronounce it "Jahveh" that is still within the parameters of what has been revealed to man. If God does not mind (and he would surely have stipulated the pronunciation if he did), who are we to be dogmatic.


    Edited by - Earnest on 16 August 2002 17:21:0

  • Pistoff

    yardiff said:

    REASON* itself gives them the right!

    wow. I thought i had seen the limits of arrogance till i read this post from you yard. What kind of *reason* is that? "As modern day translators, oops, no, bible students we think that Paul, Peter and Jesus made a mistake by not saying Jehovah, and so we are inserting it where it NEVER was. The fellowship will be upset about this, so let's put the admission about what we did buried in fine print that very few will read or understand, and let them read this bible in the door to door ministry to interested ones; it won't matter to them that we are INTELLECTUALLY AND MORALLY DISHONEST in this matter."

    THAT is some kinda reason, yard.

    how about that little scripture about not adding or subtracting??

    I am a lifelong witness, and i am pissed off at being LIED to for so long about so much.
    so take your sophistry and cram it.

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