2 Cor 4:4: Jehovah=Satan? (page 3)

Sirona

For the record, you edited that post after I'd asked the questions.

Sirona

Bang, I hope this doesn't sound patronising too, but you missed my point entirely.

Firstly we are talking about the bible, not my opinion of God. I am debating whether 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to Satan or Jehovah. Therefore your comments about how I see gods are irrelevant.

Secondly, your point about "this world" is totally irrelevant. I made the point that the phrase "this order of things" may refer not to "this world" but to the mosaic law at the time of the writing of 2 Corinthians. Therefore the god of the mosaic law (Jehovah) could be the god that this scripture refers to. Talking about the spirit of the world is not relevant to my question.

I asked some questions and you subsequently went back and edited your post to make it look like I'd asked AFTER you posted. From the times on the posting (and your editing) it is clear that I asked and then you went back to edit your original post. Lets just assume that you want to p*ss me off by doing that and get back to the discussion.

Bang

"and you subsequently went back and edited your post to make it look like I'd asked AFTER you posted"

Chill out - I just took a long time to do the editting on the post - you posted in the meantime, during that time.

2 Cor 4:4 refers to a god. When considering who it is, it's surely relevant to consider what you think a god is for a start. Why not Caesar?

The "of this world" or "of this system" or "of this order" is pretty much all saying "of the way we and the world in general have thought was righteous, or, the standards that we (by our flesh)thought were God rules".

As Jesus pointed out, those notions that were aspired to as righteousness, are actually a service of Satan - living according to the ideas of your flesh. Even with such things as Peter's desire to keep his good friend alive, "Get behind me Satan".

bang

Sirona

Chill out - I just took a long time to do the editting on the post - you posted in the meantime, during that time.

LOL, sorry, I'm very tense at the moment.

About gods, yes, I accept that ones general notion of what a god is in the bible is relevant. My idea of what a god is is actually nothing like the bible's idea anyway. The bible sometimes refers to humans as gods doesn't it?

The "of this world" or "of this system" or "of this order" is pretty much all saying "of the way we and the world in general have thought was righteous, or, the standards that we (by our flesh)thought were God rules".

I think that is just speculation. "of this order" could in fact mean a system of rules such as the mosaic law.

About living through flesh, I assume you suggest that this is how they are blinded? that this spirit of fleshliness is actually the spirit of Satan? Interesting point, but I dont see support for it in the bible. Rather, the scriptures quoted in this thread are seemingly in support of the blinding being a veil that "a god " uses in peoples minds.

Sirona

pomegranate

I'm not sure that God can be said to be doing something active (e.g. blinding minds) when actually he is being passive (e.g. failing ot heal)

First, God does not "fail" to heal. He chooses NOT to heal which is just as "active" as healing, with that activity being defined as CHOOSING. YES or NO. "No" is just as active as "yes" when one is making a choice. NOT HEAL is just as active a decision as HEAL when making a choice. The HEAL means a release of power, the NOT HEAL means no release. When you make a choice, your NO is just as active as your YES. Giving sight is just as active as NOT giving sight.

Then again, the bible does mention those chosen and those not chosen by God. Interesting perspective

I believe that's what the real truth is all about. It's God's choice and man has no say. He decides right and wrong, good and bad, wheat and weed, light and dark, chosen and unchosen. Who are we to resist His will?

Sirona

He chooses NOT to heal which is just as "active" as healing, with that activity being defined as CHOOSING.

Ok I can accept this in a description of God. However, if I personally do not do something then it isn't always a choice. Sometimes I just don't do something because it never came up, in that sense its passive. God must always make a choice though because he knows everything and therefore will either choose to act or not. So I admit that you are probably right with that view then, in accord with the bible.

It's God's choice and man has no say. He decides right and wrong, good and bad, wheat and weed, light and dark, chosen and unchosen. Who are we to resist His will?

Yes the bible does say that. I do not agree with that personally.

Sirona

pomegranate

Yes the bible does say that. I do not agree with that personally.

Then why open a topic on the Bible, if you do not believe the Bible?

If you are not looking, you are hiding.

ozziepost

Sirona,

You may be interested in the wording of 2 Cor. 4:4 from the NIV:

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

I find it reads better and makes the intention of the writer clear and consistent with what we understand from other passages.

Cheers, Ozzie

Sirona

Ozzie, mmm interesting. It appears that perhaps the term "this age" may be accurate in describing a period in history perhaps? Nevertheless this translation does contradict any suggestion of the "order of things" being the mosaic law. The plot thickens on this topic it seems!

Pomegranate:

Then why open a topic on the Bible, if you do not believe the Bible?

Well, I am very interested indeed in having knowledge of what the bible actually says. I do not have to believe the bible to discuss it or seek to gain knowledge of it. In fact, as I mentioned in another post, I want to compile a list of scriptural references and thereby form my own opinion of what the bible is actually saying. That does not mean that I will stop being pagan.

If you are not looking, you are hiding.

I dont understand what this means. Please explain.

Sirona

Bleep

The Bible shows that you can make your tummy a god.

2 Cor 4:4: Jehovah=Satan?

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