2 Cor 4:4: Jehovah=Satan?

by Sirona 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    LittleToe: I have The Online Bible Millennium Edition (www.onlinebibleusa.com). It has a tremendous amount of non-copyrighted material, as well as a number of newer translations available for a royalty. Much of the info is also available for free download from their site.

    Bug: It's interesting that Isa 6:10 (re: God blinding the Israelites) is one of the more frequently quoted OT passages (Matt 13:14, 15 + parallels; John 12:40; Acts 28:26, 27). Comp also Deut 29:4 and Isa 29:10, quoted ay Rom 11:8. Certainly shows that, at least theoretically, the "god who blinds" in 2 Cor 4:4 could be Yahweh.

    YouKnow: Good points. I know enough Greek to be dangerous (can read and write it, no formal training other than 20 years of study). I too will wait and see if someone else offers a comment.

    Craig (of the Obiwan Kenobi class, immune to LT's light sabre)

  • winsome
    winsome

    Hi Sirona:

    The "god of this system of things" in 2 Corinthians 4:4, would be as you have deduced, Jehovah God. Here's why.

    When we check the context, we see mentioned a "veil" that prevents understanding of God's Word. This "veil" is placed there by Almighty God. It is part of the "judgment" and punishment God places upon His Own People, Israel, for acts of disobedience and for being "unbelievers" of Sacred His Word from His viewpoint.

    How do we know? Well, I think the use of the word "veil" is a key thought in determining which "God" is taking action against the "unbelievers" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So, when we take note of that fact, the answer becomes clear and easy to discern. Here are the key verses to consider. You will notice, the verses mention a "veil" that prevents understanding of scripture for the Jewish nation, Israel. Its sole purpose is to prevent Israel from "understanding" God's Word.

    "Therefore, as we have such a hope, we are using great freeness of speech, and not doing as when Moses would put a veil upon his face, that the sons of Israel might not gaze intently at the end of that which was to be done away with. But their [Israel's] mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant [for Israel], because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away...If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing [Jews], among whom the God [Jehovah] of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers [Jews], that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through." -- 2 Corinthians 3:12-16; 4:3,4

    Paul is talking about the nation of Israel and how their "reading of the old covenant" is veiled. He says, "their mental powers were dulled." This has occurred to the nation of Israel as a special punishment from God Almighty. The "mental powers being dulled" is actually the same identical thing that occurs to the "MINDS of the unbelievers" in 2 Cor. 4:4 where it says, "blinds the minds of the unbelievers". Their "minds" are blinded. Or, their "mental powers are dulled." It is the same situation. Therefore, the "good news" that Paul is referring to in 2 Cor. 4:4 was in fact "veiled" to the Jewish nation, Israel. Why? No doubt because they did not want to accept Christ. The nation and its religious leaders, did not want to include "Christ" Jesus, as part of the big picture of God's overall purposes. But Paul was showing above, the nation of Israel could never ever understand God's purposes for them, without first accepting Christ's role for them as "savior" of the nation. Without that understanding, the "good news" would continue to be "veiled" or not understood for all eternity for this "blinded" people.

    This is why John also showed how "blindness" would be the punishment God would enact upon Israel too for disobedience and faithlessness. He said,

    "But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? The reason why they [Jews] were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said:He [God] has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I shall heal them." -- John 12:37-40

    An interesting point about this blindness. In the following verses, Paul referred to this "blindness" from God as being actually a SELF-INDUCED blindness, where Israel utterly refuses to "see" with their eyes. If this is the case, this would make the blindness in reality, a blatant refusal to "see" that which is obvious and apparent. Thus making the blindness an act of overt disobedience on their part. Paul stated of Israel:

    "...The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers, saying, "Go to this people and say: By hearing, you will hear but by no means understand; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and THEY [ISRAEL] HAVE SHUT THEIR EYES; THAT THEY NEVER SEE WITH THEIR EYES and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back, and I should heal them. -- Acts 28:26, 27

    Paul says above, "they [Israel] have shut their eyes". The people did this. That would make it WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE, which means the blindness is then, self-induced. In other words, they "closed their eyes" willingly. Because of doing this, Jehovah now chooses to "paste their eyes shut" on a permanent basis, as a punishment for this type of conduct. He completes an action they have already started -- self-induced blindness. This would explain the wording on the following verses.

    "And he went on to say; Go, and you must say to this people, Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge. Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and PASTE THEIR VERY EYES TOGETHER, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves." -- Isaiah 6:9, 10

    God takes this action AFTER they prove to be "willingly ignorant". He acts, ONLY after they have expressed their "will" in this matter. -- See 2 Peter 3:5 KJV

    If 2 Corinthians 4:4, were referring to the world outside the christian congregation, this would be a needless act on Satan's part. Blindness is their natural "trademark". They need no help from Satan.

    But if this were God's people, the nation of Israel, then this would make perfect sense, as it would be in keeping with His promises made to bring about the "malediction" upon His people and His Jewish "system of things" [order of things], if Israel should disobey and remain in "unbelief" toward His sacred messages. God point-blank said, for disobedience to His Law, God would strike His people with the "curse, confusion" and "BEWILDERMENT OF HEART". Mental blindness. -- Deut. 28:15, 20, 28

    God said,

    "And you [Israel] will indeed become one who GROPES ABOUT AT MIDDAY, just as a blind man gropes about in the gloom, and you will not make your ways successful..." Deut. 28:29

    They would become a blind nation by way of God's punishment upon them.

    So it would be most appropriate based upon what we know about Jehovah God and the Mosiac Law, for God Himself then to strike His Own People Israel, with "blindness", as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:4.

    It would be as Paul said,

    "...God has given them [Israel] a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day. Also, David says: "Let their table become for them a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution; let their eyes become darkened so as not to see, and always bow down their back...They also, if they [Israel] do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again...For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes; that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in." -- Romans 11:8-10, 23, 25

    Clearly, the blinding action on God's part upon Israel is in keeping with His Character and Sworn Word. It should therefore come as no surprise to serious students of God's Word that Jehovah God should rightfully be the one we refer to as the "God of this system of things" that "blinds the minds of the unbelievers" of the nation of Israel. -- 2 Cor. 4:4

    I agree with your conclusion.

    winsome

    Edited by - winsome on 13 August 2002 15:31:38

  • FRUSR8TD
    FRUSR8TD
    Put another way, in relation to the great God Jehovah the Devil is merely a god, but as the sole ruler of this system of things he is the god---for the time being anyway. Hope that helps / You Know

    sooooo....now the JW's believe in 3 gods?.....keeps getting brighter deeper my the minute

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    If Satan is responsible for blinding the whole world to the light of God, and it is by God's will and God's will alone that some are "healed" and given "sight" from this blindness, can it be said that God has indeed "blinded" some if He chose NOT to give these unchosen ones sight to see the light?

    By choosing NOT to heal, hasn't God "blinded" by His choice NOT to heal?

    If the power of light is stronger than the dark, and ONLY THE LIGHT chooses who shall see and reflect and who shall not, the light by CHOICE has blinded some by leaving the blindness UNHEALED. Wouldn't that be true?

    Could it be that though God is not the source or creator of darkness and blindness, He uses it as a means to have LIGHT SHINE OUT OF THE DARKNESS? At His will and discretion only?

    2 Cor 4:6
    6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"

    In contrast, Satan would be saying, cover over the light with my darkness.

    Edited by - pomegranate on 13 August 2002 15:58:56

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Craig:

    Interesting that the focus of this debate had to do with the deity of Christ, rather than the simplest sense of this verse.

    Isnt that always the case

    So called scholars are often like coal miners looking for gold.

    Sinora:

    The book is "the Jesus Mysteries"

    I was just reading some in this book two nights ago but stopped, I couldnt get into it, for reasons above. ;)

    LittleToe:

    Be careful, I have a light saber, now, and I don't know how to use it!!!

    Thats ok if you miss I still have mine and Im very good with it. ;)

    PLUM

  • Bang
    Bang

    The "god of this world" is Satan - accuser of sinners and satisfier of the flesh. People are simply blinded by their own flesh oriented desires and fears (escape from armageddon etc.) - living according to the flesh is being subject to "the god of this world" - by which one can remain blind to the truth about themselves.

    The "god of this world" is not the Father, the Holy Spirit or Jesus - His kingdom is "not of this world".

    bang

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Bugs: Excellent scriptures to back up the idea! Most especially Romans 11:7,8. One day I will compile a list of scriptural thoughts that contradict JW teachings, so this will be added

    Sentinel: Unbelievable that your mother could say those things!!!! It appears to be a JW idea then that God will blind those he doesn't want in "his organisation" Funnily enough, I remember an elder saying that God USES people to bring other people into the org...then he gets rid of the person he used by turning them away (e.g. they were just a tool for God to get someone right-hearted into the org). Urgh it makes me sick when I think of how self righteous they are!

    I agree that a LOVING God would not blind people to truth....but honestly the bible's God is not that loving.

    Winsome: excellent post! I've printed out what you said so I can digest it further. I did not consider that this may be a special punishment to israel that is an interesting point. Self induced, but followed up by God's judgement. It seems to be a major flaw in JW teaching since they assert that Satan is "a god" and that he is the god of this world. Perhaps Jesus meant something else when he suggested Satan was the "ruler of this world"....maybe he meant that the effects of Satan's sin ruled the world? mmm that is something I will need to consider further.

    Pomegranate: I'm not sure that God can be said to be doing something active (e.g. blinding minds) when actually he is being passive (e.g. failing ot heal) Then again, the bible does mention those chosen and those not chosen by God. Interesting perspective.

    Plmkrzy: I've enjoyed the book, although I agree that they are simply trying to prove that Jesus wasn't the Son of God. Shame they lose focus.

    Bang: Please give scriptural "proof" of your assertions that Satan is the god of this world.

    Sirona

  • Bang
    Bang

    Well, of the top of my head - "My kingdom is not of this world"

    It all depends on what you mean by god. For jws, god means something like a boss, some are better than others. Others believe that aside from the one God, others are false in the sense that they have no life in themselves - spirits that you can make, follow and give service to - it is people that give 'life' to these spirits or gods, but as the people can pass, so can the particular spirit. The "god of this world" or in other words "the spirit that this world serves" is a false god, no life in itself - an idol.

    My perspective is that you are still influenced by jwism to think in terms of god bosses that have different teams, and you do wonder about the goodness of the biggest bosses' actions. It's a completely different type of argument. The one true God has life in Himself, with or without us, forever - and He doesn't do nastiness - that's the beauty of God. Jws simply don't even think along such lines so it's hard to be in on the same argument with them.

    The "god of this world" is simply the god that this world follows. Do you think it's 'jehovah' ? I reckon jehovah is one of the "god of this world's" behavioural conditions at least.

    bang

    Edited by - bang on 14 August 2002 6:28:2

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Where does it say that, Bang? Also, just because Jesus's kingdom is not of this world, does not mean he (or Jehovah) isn't the God of this world?

    Plus, the phrase "this system of things" can be translated "this order of things" so how is that "the world"?

    Sirona

  • Bang
    Bang

    See above. I hope it doesn't sound patronising.

    And that quote is from Christ - maybe when He was going to be crucified

    John 18:36

    bang

    Edited by - bang on 14 August 2002 6:21:35

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