Is Mutual Respect Possible?

by Sociologist 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dia
    Dia

    Because they hurt us deeply. And we'd like to protect others from the same. And that's almost impossible to do because of the high control they exert on their members - so that the members can't even really find out about what the ex's are saying or feeling or thinking.

    The things you mentioned about both groups: In most of the cases on your list, the bad things the WT did came first. Then, at least 75% of the time, the bad things the ex's do are in RESPONSE to them.

    It's BECAUSE of what the WT says or does that the ex's are responding the way they are.

    To be continued....

    Edited by - Dia on 6 August 2002 0:49:34

  • Victor_E
    Victor_E


    (1) Why are many on both sides so fanatical? Presumably there must be humanly intelligent, morally decent, rational beings in both JW and ex-JW camps. And surely, objectively speaking, the Watchtower organization is neither 100% evil nor 100% perfect. Why is it apparently just as difficult for ex-witnesses to see anything positive in the organization as it is for current Witnesses to admit that there might be weaknesses?

    What you call fanatical is merely passionate expression of issues close to the heart of posters. The day that the Watchtower and us EXJWs can meet as equals on a different plane from the one these issues were created, only then can we enter into a spirit of understanding. As is evident from the treatment of Bill Bowen there is a better change of the Taliban meeting to negotiate a truce with Bush than the geriatric senile leaders admitting wrongdoing and negotiating a truce.

    (2) Is the participation of ex-JW's on this and similar web-sites typical of all who leave the JW religion? What percentage do you think become vocal opponents of the Watchtower, and what percentage just move on and get on with their lives? Why are so many now atheists or agnostics? Do many ex-JW's now belong to traditional Christian groups? (They appear to be a silent minority here.)

    Good questions get me a grant and I will do the empirical study at the university I teach at to answer your questions.

    (3) The opposing camp emphasize what they perceive to be the weaknesses of Witnesses (arrogance in claiming only they are right, fanaticism, deceitfulness [at the very least "spin"] with regard to their beliefs, self-righteousness, excessive concern with appearances, manipulation, etc.). Obviously these qualities are not unique to JW's. Could it not be said that they are common, even typical of organized religion in general? Or to take it a step further, might it be said that they are basic to human nature? Is it reasonable for some JW's to paint all ex-witnesses as "evil apostates"?

    Opposing is as opposing does, so it depends from where you are making your subjective perceptual presuppositioin. I think JWs and EXJWs are two sides of the same coin, generalized passionate dissagrements that can not be reconciled. The JWs want to control their membership because of the big money and power that is at stake. While I don't claim to speak in behalf of all EXJWs, in general we want the Watchtower to come clean and practice an epistemology of the spirit of Chrisitanity, rather than the high control cultish pyramid power structure.

    (4) A lot of what is written on this board is reminiscent of what you might hear from a disgruntled divorcee describing their former spouse's behavior. There would appear to be a lot of bitterness, sarcasm/irony, "demonizing" in general. Some comments I have read are frankly vulgar, others more sophisticated, but in all cases, the question arises: How objective is the picture they portray? After all, even ex-witnesses (who may have spent years in the organization) must surely have enjoyed SOME positive benefits from their adherence to the organization that justified their staying as long as they did. Aside from raising questions of the objectivity of those who write about their experiences with the organization, one wonders whether such an approach is conducive to good mental and emotional health. Clearly such an all-embracing shift in worldview would cause great emotional upheaval, but are there more mature ways of dealing with it?

    Again two sides of the same coin, JWs and EXJWs. The issue of mental health applies to both camps. Of course there are more mature ways many like Bowen, Lee Elder, Franz, Penton, myself and other predecesors have made the rational attempt only to be stonewalled, demonized and expelled in a very cruel and dishonorable way.

    5) Without questioning the sincerity of many current or former JW's, what is gained by constant efforts to criticize or condemn the other side? If ex-JW's have found something they like better, what is to be gained by attempting to induce them to stay, even if you think they are making a colossal mistake by leaving? On the other hand, if current witnesses are satisfied with their religion, then why try to disillusion them, even if you believe they are hopelessly mistaken? (Ex-JW's who are now atheists would presumably agree that in 100 years from now, everyone, JW or not, will be in the same situation [i.e. dead], so what difference could it possibly make?)

    This forum is different things to different people. For some it's a place to have a catharsis by the expression of their painful experience, for others it's an educational forum, for others it's a place to make new friends who share a painful past (kindred spirits who understand each other), for others it's a support group not unlike AA, and for others it's a place to vent their anger and rage, etc., etc.

    (6) To what extent are both sides willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions? It is easy to cry mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc, but in reality such a paradigm could hardly account for millions of people subscribing to this or that belief system. It would seem that people who believe the Watchtower (or any other religious or non-religious tenets) do so because they have CHOSEN to believe it; people who don't believe it have CHOSEN not to believe it. That is not to say that such choices are always made consciously; many are made by default. But would you agree that there is a strong tendency in both camps to say that the problem is all "out there," with the other side? How realistic is such a position?

    You will find many more people on the EXJW side who are willing and have taken responsibility for their choices. The problem is here and there, we have seen the enemy and the enemy is both us and them. "Some people look at the way things are and they ask why?. Others look at the way things could be and they ask why not"? That would take a whole book to explain it so just keep reading if you want the answers.

    I am not naive enough to think that there is a way to bring all factions together to a common conclusion, but I am curious to know, define and describe what exactly is going on here. Is it a group of victims gathering together for solidarity and support, or - returning to the divorce analogy - a group of persons willing to engage in mutual complaining and "confessing the sins" of their former spouses? And why would any JW who is satisfied with his religious affiliation wish to post here?

    Yes. Well some JWs come here for special attention, some like it so much they stay. These become our honorary punching bags. As long as people are victimized they will need a place to have others witness their atrocities by hearing their stories. This place is as good as any to do that.

    "Some people think they are thinking when they are merely re-aranging their prejudices" William James

    Victor Escalante

  • Dia
    Dia

    Why do JWs come here? Because they're curious but too guarded to say they're curious.

    So they come here and cause trouble and express that they are defending the WT, but really, in the backs of their minds, it's just an excuse to sit back and let it all soak in without actually saying so. To others and maybe to yourself, too.

  • sunshineToo
    sunshineToo

    Sociologist,

    Why are YOU here????

  • Bang
    Bang

    Mutual respect is not really possible - as for me I have set my face against them.

    And the reasons are simple - they systematically tell lies and stink up other peoples lives - and then lie about even doing it - and then lie and then lie - and then some divine threats and then lie and then lie.

    bang

  • libra_spirit
    libra_spirit

    Your questions reveal your ignorance on the subject. Ignorance is a curable condition however so there is hope for you to gain an understanding!

    This is merely a meeting of people with a common expierence with the JW faith. Usually of abuse in thier lives, sanctioned if not orchestraited by the Church. Where there is abuse, there is a healing process, a time of questioning. "Is it my fault?""Should I feel guilty?" There is sorrow, regrets. There is the "what if" stage. There is denial.There is the rage and hate stage, much venting. And hopfully there is recovery. All the same symptoms of abuse survivors.

    I did not have a choice to become a JW, it was programmed into my mind from my childhood, along with some very real and graphic fears of my horrible death if I was to ever leave this Organization. I was systematically traumatized from childhood to believe that my life was not my own, to choose anything freely was never an option! The Organization places itself cleverly into the position of my God on earth, never to be questioned, always to be feared. For God sake you figure out the rest on your own. This is Spiritual abuse from childhood and on up. My parents love for me was very conditional, think about that for a minute. If I strayed from the "Truth" the love was cutoff even from my own parents, untill which time I would submitt to the Organization once again to become acceptable to be loved. Guess what I have spent the rest of my life trying to find in a female partner.....unconditional love....that I should have gotten from my parents. Now I grant you, many of these things happen to other non-JW's but the one difference here is this, it was orchestrated by the Org. I have these same issues in common with most all these other EX-JW's because they all got the same treatment that I did.

    This Organization pretending to be a Church, is in fact a very controlling, mind control cult. It's penalties of DFing people have caused many children and young people to committ suicide. The mental health of both JW's and EX-JW's is many times worse then other religions, I believe you may be able to find actual numbers on this. The suicide rate is far higher also. Now you can't possible tell me that it's all just in my disgrunteled head, I have seen too much abuse right up close and personal. The inside "behind closed doors" judicial system used to punish members gives the circle of elders complete annonomous control over all members, with absolutly no accountability for thier rullings. All proceedings all offenses and all proof of guilt is kept hidden. You can be DFed for any reason that any 3 elders agree on, they do not have to grant you an appeal and usually do not.

    The penalty for leaving the Church is Spiritual death, emotional death, and the death of any support you can ever expect to get from your family still in the Org. Because this does not end after you leave the Church, it goes on and on and on this shunning never ends. Many of us live with it the rest of our lives. Fathers that will not talk to thier own sons when they are in trouble are turned away with statements like "you will get what you deserve, I told you so". This is not the love of a father for a child. You can say that this happens in all religions and to an extent you would be correct, but in this religion it ALLWAYS happens, and this is the difference. The families do not have a choice. It is being imposed on everyone to protect the cult from exposure for all it's decietfull teachings. The prophecies and teachings of the JW faith have been so absolutely ridiculous over the last 100 years, that no one in thier right mind would consider getting involved with the group if they would simply read the history of what has been taught, and then changed and hidden.

    It should be easy even for you an outsider to see from this that many who do research the history begin to realize that the leaders of this Church are not so sincere as they would have you believe that they are. Even in the elders manual, a reference the elders use to judge and guide the flock, thier is practices that contridict the basic doctrine. Any elder who has trained using this manual should be able to recognise that it contridicts the basic doctrine taught to the flock!

    How can I not hold the leaders of this church responsible for the damage thier false teachings have caused? Especially when such teachings are so obviously in error, and are frequently changed. The "no blood transfusions issue" alone has claimed the death of untold numbers of people.

    I would have to say sir you have not done your homework if you cannot understand what is truly happening here. If you do some research of the JW leaders and doctrines, you will no longer be able to give them the benifite of the doubt. They have created a Religion that combines old testament law, fear of God, and Judgment, with a conditional Love of Jesus Christ. They are not Christian, by anyones definition except thier own. To survive they must earn thier way by thier own works, this is totally unchristian doctrine. However it explaines why they will cut off close family members totally for exiting the Church.

    Edited by - libra_spirit on 6 August 2002 6:2:27

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I found something in the manner, of the first post in this thread, offensive, too. It was appears manipulative and engineered. I bridle against that, even though I'm not usually too sensitive to such issues.
    I think that Hillary described this best.

    It isn't so much the individuals (although some a real asswipes) but the strictures of the WTS that fail the mutual understanding test. You perhaps forget that we have seen both sides of the coin, whereas those inside are barred from that observation.

    If you truly expect detached consideration, from people who have been damaged (to a greater or lesser degree) by this cult, then you may have another thing coming.

  • Sociologist
    Sociologist

    Thank you to those who took the time to reply to my questions. It has provided me with some food for thought. Unfortunately, it also confirms what I suspected: objective comments about the Watchtower organization are hard to come by. Most active JW's are loathe to admit to any defects in the organization; most of you who commented are unwilling to recognize anything positive about it. Both sides are hopelessly biased.

    It is not just the JW organization that doesn't like too many questions being asked; quite a few ex-witnesses apparently feel the same way, judging by some of the replies. It is a mentality that strikes out and attacks those who even hint at disagreeing, calling them insincere, ignorant or evil. Coming from supposedly liberated minds I find that strange and can only hope that this message board is not representative of the majority of ex-witnesses, who hopefully resist wallowing in self-pity and complaining about how badly they've been treated and get on with their lives.

    Viktor Frankl wrote in his book "Man's Search for Meaning" about his experiences in the concentration camps. Although he suffered terrible atrocities, he did not consider that his time there was wasted. He looked for, and found, ways to give meaning to his suffering. Others after him have said that life is 10% what happens to you and 90% what you do about it. If the WT organization is really so bad as you believe it is, then rejoice that you got out, put it behind you and get a life!

    Sociologist

  • larc
    larc

    Sociologist, if you are a social scientist, as your handle implies, then you have done a poor job of asking questions. Your questions are not framed in a neutral way, but are framed in an inflammitory manner. You have received what your own bias has predicted. Since you are new here, I doubt that you have read the many "objective" threads on JW issues, nor have you read the unbiased analyses that exist here. To say thay we are "hopelessly biased", and full of self pity, is a biased perception, on your part, based on your preconceived opinion. For you to tell us to "get a life" shows that you have no understanding as to what our life entails. I know what I, and many others here are doing in creating a rich and fulfilling life for themselves. You really need to rethink your whole approach to this subject.

  • Dia
    Dia

    Positive things: I think I got my writing and research skills from doing all those little skits as a child. I learned to not give a shit what other people thought of me and to be bold about standing up for something and being different (tho this was actually a rather shallow event, internally). I learned to be cynical and mistrustful of almost everything. Which does have its good points. I have at times taken EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. That gives you some skills of the investigative journalist type. I learned to be 'nice' and to assume that everyone else is 'nice', too. (It's hard to comment further on that one). How'm I doin'?

    Oh yes, and I learned to be comfortable approaching strangers.

    Edited by - Dia on 6 August 2002 8:5:54

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