Is Mutual Respect Possible?

by Sociologist 48 Replies latest jw friends

Sociologist

One of the most striking things about this and similar message boards concerning Jehovah's Witnesses is the strength of feeling JW-related discussions evoke. As I dabble in sociology, I was wondering what you all thought about the following questions. My objective is not to criticize persons belonging to other group but rather to attempt to grasp the dynamics of the conflicts at work here.
The questions:
(1) Why are many on both sides so fanatical? Presumably there must be humanly intelligent, morally decent, rational beings in both JW and ex-JW camps. And surely, objectively speaking, the Watchtower organization is neither 100% evil nor 100% perfect. Why is it apparently just as difficult for ex-witnesses to see anything positive in the organization as it is for current Witnesses to admit that there might be weaknesses?
(2) Is the participation of ex-JW's on this and similar web-sites typical of all who leave the JW religion? What percentage do you think become vocal opponents of the Watchtower, and what percentage just move on and get on with their lives? Why are so many now atheists or agnostics? Do many ex-JW's now belong to traditional Christian groups? (They appear to be a silent minority here.)
(3) The opposing camp emphasize what they perceive to be the weaknesses of Witnesses (arrogance in claiming only they are right, fanaticism, deceitfulness [at the very least "spin"] with regard to their beliefs, self-righteousness, excessive concern with appearances, manipulation, etc.). Obviously these qualities are not unique to JW's. Could it not be said that they are common, even typical of organized religion in general? Or to take it a step further, might it be said that they are basic to human nature? Is it reasonable for some JW's to paint all ex-witnesses as "evil apostates"?
(4) A lot of what is written on this board is reminiscent of what you might hear from a disgruntled divorcee describing their former spouse's behavior. There would appear to be a lot of bitterness, sarcasm/irony, "demonizing" in general. Some comments I have read are frankly vulgar, others more sophisticated, but in all cases, the question arises: How objective is the picture they portray? After all, even ex-witnesses (who may have spent years in the organization) must surely have enjoyed SOME positive benefits from their adherence to the organization that justified their staying as long as they did. Aside from raising questions of the objectivity of those who write about their experiences with the organization, one wonders whether such an approach is conducive to good mental and emotional health. Clearly such an all-embracing shift in worldview would cause great emotional upheaval, but are there more mature ways of dealing with it?
(5) Without questioning the sincerity of many current or former JW's, what is gained by constant efforts to criticize or condemn the other side? If ex-JW's have found something they like better, what is to be gained by attempting to induce them to stay, even if you think they are making a colossal mistake by leaving? On the other hand, if current witnesses are satisfied with their religion, then why try to disillusion them, even if you believe they are hopelessly mistaken? (Ex-JW's who are now atheists would presumably agree that in 100 years from now, everyone, JW or not, will be in the same situation [i.e. dead], so what difference could it possibly make?)
(6) To what extent are both sides willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions? It is easy to cry mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc, but in reality such a paradigm could hardly account for millions of people subscribing to this or that belief system. It would seem that people who believe the Watchtower (or any other religious or non-religious tenets) do so because they have CHOSEN to believe it; people who don't believe it have CHOSEN not to believe it. That is not to say that such choices are always made consciously; many are made by default. But would you agree that there is a strong tendency in both camps to say that the problem is all "out there," with the other side? How realistic is such a position?
I am not naive enough to think that there is a way to bring all factions together to a common conclusion, but I am curious to know, define and describe what exactly is going on here. Is it a group of victims gathering together for solidarity and support, or - returning to the divorce analogy - a group of persons willing to engage in mutual complaining and "confessing the sins" of their former spouses? And why would any JW who is satisfied with his religious affiliation wish to post here?
If anyone has any views on these questions I'd be interested to hear them.
Sociologist
larc

Hey Soci, answer your own questions before we provide our answers. You have gotten off to a bad start with me. I find you to be distant and condescending. If I am wrong, then prove it. I have stronger words for you, but I will refrain. Now, if you have something positive to offer, then offer it. In the mean time, don't try to pick our brains.
Perry

Welcome to the board. It is evident that you have given a lot of thought to your post. Let me just say that I feel many of your observations have been carefully constructed for you.
Let me ask you a question Sociologist. How would you define freedom? Surely any definition of freedom would include access to honest information. Right? That is one of the factors to seriously consider when determining the control level of any group.
The difference between JW's and non-controlling groups is that there is no formal punitive actions barring access to information. Normal christian religions encourage members to read a lot of information from different sources. By listening in on the various arguments the student hones his perceptive powers and can choose which views harmonize most with the bible. Far from being restrictive, the person is loosed to interact with the divine in a much more personal way.
As far as this board goes.... Let me just say that certainly, I cannot be counted among the more popular posters here. Perhaps my views are not seen as politically correct at times. However, the big difference is that even though others have at times strongly disagreed with me, no one has ever asked me to leave. I am not cast out simply because I have a different view.
You asked, "why not allow those who wish to stay JW's to stay in peace, without critism and why not allow those who wish to leave simply leave" . Did you know that you are repeating WT reasoning and jargon. In fact you did throughout your post.
The reason is because the WT imprisons its members and makes family life almost impossible. I miss my family, plain and simple. I tried for several years to have relationships with family members that are still witnesses. You know the result of that don't you? Sure you do. It is a sick joke played on normal law abiding citizens by a multi-billion dollar NY corporation.
As long as the WT continues to encourage isolation and busted up families, there will be a few courageous ones who refuse to be silenced by the fear the WT would like us to feel. I for one will not allow them to meddle in people's families and escape the stigma of a dangerous cult.
hillary_step

Hello Sociologist,
Welcome to our community.
I am not naive enough to think that there is a way to bring all factions together to a common conclusion, but I am curious to know, define and describe what exactly is going on here. Is it a group of victims gathering together for solidarity and support, or - returning to the divorce analogy - a group of persons willing to engage in mutual complaining and "confessing the sins" of their former spouses?
As a student of 'sociology' you must be aware that your thread would not pass the test of objectivity. You do not ask questions. You ask compromised questions that indicate a pre-conclusion. If you rephrase your questions without your own added preconceptions I think many people would reply to what might be an interesting post, one which has the potential of merit. I suspect that until you do you will find that you will gain little from your 'examinations'.
Best regards - HS
Edited by - hillary_step on 5 August 2002 23:6:20
AjaxMan

"why not allow those who wish to stay JW's to stay in peace, without critism and why not allow those who wish to leave simply leave" .
How about this, why don't they friggin' stop knocking our doors early in the Morning on Saturdays to sell their religious rubbish?
Or how about this, why don't they stop looking for recruits and just let the recruits come to them instead? In other words, let the people come to the KH by themselves rather than the JWs come to the people?
(6) To what extent are both sides willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions? It is easy to cry mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc, but in reality such a paradigm could hardly account for millions of people subscribing to this or that belief system. It would seem that people who believe the Watchtower (or any other religious or non-religious tenets) do so because they have CHOSEN to believe it; people who don't believe it have CHOSEN not to believe it. That is not to say that such choices are always made consciously; many are made by default. But would you agree that there is a strong tendency in both camps to say that the problem is all "out there," with the other side? How realistic is such a position?
Does the factor of FEAR plays a part in choosing to believe the Watchtower or staying in it? When you choose NOT to believe it, you will run into the FEAR of being shunned, don't you? One side, the JW side, will never accept responsibility because they always think that they are right and anything against it is evil. That will be their thinking and they will never look at the other side of the story. exJWs tend to have a more realistic position than JWs because JWs live within their own little world or truth while exJWs already lived in that world and are thriving as well as living in the real world.
Now, I also like to see your answers to your questions.
gravedancer

Well, unlike some of the oversensitive folk I believe you asked good questions.
(1) Why are many on both sides so fanatical? Presumably there must be humanly intelligent, morally decent, rational beings in both JW and ex-JW camps. And surely, objectively speaking, the Watchtower organization is neither 100% evil nor 100% perfect. Why is it apparently just as difficult for ex-witnesses to see anything positive in the organization as it is for current Witnesses to admit that there might be weaknesses?
Fanatics of any kind are damaged goods..and they are unable to act on rational thought. It applies equally well to JWs and XJWs. There are many here who think the WT can do no right. Unfortuantely, this thinking goes largely unchallenged since most of us do not want to provide any positive acknowledgement to the WT society. The fanatic XJWs are just the same as their fanatical JW kinfolk. Hatred from any side which consumes ones mind and thoughts can never be postive to oneself or to others. Do not confuse frustration with hatred.
(2) Is the participation of ex-JW's on this and similar web-sites typical of all who leave the JW religion? What percentage do you think become vocal opponents of the Watchtower, and what percentage just move on and get on with their lives? Why are so many now atheists or agnostics? Do many ex-JW's now belong to traditional Christian groups? (They appear to be a silent minority here.)
I am an atheist because I insist on proof and so far their is NO proof of anything other than evolution which makes sense to me. I will not live my life investing my time and energy so that I give up my freedom for some God who could not give a rats ass about humanity. If anything I am more frustrated by lack of rationality than by JW-think (since their is no difference). The reason the Christian groups are silent is because they are still clutching for mental/emotional straws.
3) The opposing camp emphasize what they perceive to be the weaknesses of Witnesses (arrogance in claiming only they are right, fanaticism, deceitfulness [at the very least "spin"] with regard to their beliefs, self-righteousness, excessive concern with appearances, manipulation, etc.). Obviously these qualities are not unique to JW's. Could it not be said that they are common, even typical of organized religion in general? Or to take it a step further, might it be said that they are basic to human nature? Is it reasonable for some JW's to paint all ex-witnesses as "evil apostates"?
Yes it is common for most religions to claim they are right? If other paths are acceptable then how can they exist without offering the easiest of lifestyles with the lowest of moral principles? In other words the only way they can control their believers is to claim to be THE right religion.
(4) A lot of what is written on this board is reminiscent of what you might hear from a disgruntled divorcee describing their former spouse's behavior. There would appear to be a lot of bitterness, sarcasm/irony, "demonizing" in general. Some comments I have read are frankly vulgar, others more sophisticated, but in all cases, the question arises: How objective is the picture they portray? After all, even ex-witnesses (who may have spent years in the organization) must surely have enjoyed SOME positive benefits from their adherence to the organization that justified their staying as long as they did. Aside from raising questions of the objectivity of those who write about their experiences with the organization, one wonders whether such an approach is conducive to good mental and emotional health. Clearly such an all-embracing shift in worldview would cause great emotional upheaval, but are there more mature ways of dealing with it?
Agreed...this place is set aside for many to "bitch". Many have legitimate complaints and they need to air them. You are dealing with human emotions, feelings and affected lives of people - why do you expect objectivity? I don't expect to find it here - perhaps you need to manage your expectations properly?
(5) Without questioning the sincerity of many current or former JW's, what is gained by constant efforts to criticize or condemn the other side? If ex-JW's have found something they like better, what is to be gained by attempting to induce them to stay, even if you think they are making a colossal mistake by leaving? On the other hand, if current witnesses are satisfied with their religion, then why try to disillusion them, even if you believe they are hopelessly mistaken? (Ex-JW's who are now atheists would presumably agree that in 100 years from now, everyone, JW or not, will be in the same situation [i.e. dead], so what difference could it possibly make?)
It is a dysfunctional way of dealing with pain. Most JWs are forced into dysfunctionality - just because they cast off the organization doesn't mean the effects and thinking patterns dissipate. I agree that if people are satisfied being JW's then leave them be. However, its not quite that simple is it since if one of their family members wants out they are threatened with isolation and shunning - and thus they "stay in", albeit unhappily. You cannot have it be only one way in a very high percentage of cases.
(6) To what extent are both sides willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions? It is easy to cry mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc, but in reality such a paradigm could hardly account for millions of people subscribing to this or that belief system. It would seem that people who believe the Watchtower (or any other religious or non-religious tenets) do so because they have CHOSEN to believe it; people who don't believe it have CHOSEN not to believe it. That is not to say that such choices are always made consciously; many are made by default. But would you agree that there is a strong tendency in both camps to say that the problem is all "out there," with the other side? How realistic is such a position?
You are surely not trying to broker a truce between fanatics on either side? You would be better served trying to perform your own vasectomy (its probably far less painful too). I totally diagree with the premise of choice in this case though (perhaps they started down the road by making a choice) however, they are kept in by fear. Although just a few days ago I sat here all alone wondering if life is better as a dub with a big social circle or as a liberated loner.....
GD
Swan

Question 6 in particular offends me.
To what extent are both sides willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions? It is easy to cry mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc, but in reality such a paradigm could hardly account for millions of people subscribing to this or that belief system. It would seem that people who believe the Watchtower (or any other religious or non-religious tenets) do so because they have CHOSEN to believe it; people who don't believe it have CHOSEN not to believe it. That is not to say that such choices are always made consciously; many are made by default. But would you agree that there is a strong tendency in both camps to say that the problem is all "out there," with the other side? How realistic is such a position?
You assume that we have all consciously chosen to believe it. At what point in my life did I make that decision?
The very earliest memories I have are of my mother indoctrinating me with the lies they fed her. I never grew up with access to anything to tell me any different, and was told that if I did try and seek out anything else, that I would lose my whole family and be destroyed in a horrendous cataclysm.
I have nightmares to this day that are, in the opinion of my counselor, the result of early exposure to pictures and illustrations of such horrible destruction, that the WTC attack is minor in comparison. I look at those pictures and I am not only reminded of how frightened I was a 3 or 4 year old child, I can actually feel the same fright I felt back then!
I used to have nightmares as a child too. I remember them vividly to this day. I dremt of an awful Jehovah God destroying the people of the earth and not knowing if I would be next because I hadn't sat still in every 2 hour meeting in the Kingdom Hall. I was one scared little kid. I dreamed of demons attacking me. I dremt the moon turned into Jehovah's hand and it reached down and shook the earth, killing everybody. I dreamed of running away from angels with swords that were slaughtering everybody, because I was afraid that I would be next. Why? For not sitting still, for whispering in the meeting, or for not cleaning my room.
Yes, I'm bitter, but I am not violent towards JWs. I feel that most of them are victims like myself. Yes, I am very opposed to their oppressive regime, because I experienced the trauma of it first hand. If you see me as intractable on this issue, it is because they made me that way.
RandomTask

It's possible to have mutual respect and it even happens from time to time, but you have to remember that as HUMANS we all have feelings, sometimes those feelings get hurt. Some people are so mad that they have wasted part or even most of their life believing lies. This may have caused them to miss out on "normal" human activities, things that they can never go back and do, like being a normal kid, doing extra-curricular activites in high school, use their youth to get a higher education, etc. They are hurt because they see others that they care about still being misled by the same lies, lies which are so obvious, but because of the insidiousness of the organization, those that they care about fail or refuse to see them.
Even with all of this, most people here like normal people tend to move on with their lives, not willing to let the cult keep ruining their life by being consumed with anger. What sets people off though for the most part is when somebody tries to defend the organization and put these people down for leaving it.
Nanoprobe

Im going to bite!
Im not going to guess your motives or criticize the exact phrasing of your questions but I will try to give an honest answer.
1) The vast majority of witnesses are not evil at all. They are people who try very hard to please God and they sincerely believe that their teachings are the only truth. This is where the problems arise. Once you have been a member it is impossible to just leave this organization without facing problems that other religions do not present. See #6
2) Dont Know
3) I would like to comment on deceitfulness. One day I got a glimpse into the secret society that actually rules the witnesses in dealing with a child molestation case in the local hall. It is quiet upsetting to find out that the logic and common sense you assume is present in your own life and in your congregation does not exist. I am sure it is much like finding out about politics from Bill Clinton but it wasnt what I planned for my life.
4) Demonizing: Yes, demonizing the watchtower organization is a sport practiced on this site and it gets pretty crazy. Apparently many blame God or the Watchtower organization for everything that has happened from a bee sting to a major disaster. I have almost all positives experiences from my Watchtower days.
5) I believe that for most current witnesses it is simply best to leave them alone. If they need the organization what right do I have to destroy their comfort zone?
6) Truthfully the Watchtower is a high control organization and the number one problem is that it practices an extreme form of shunning silencing all dissention. Disfellowshipping also separates family members and is the number one reason why the cry of complains is so loud. I wont even comment on the child abuse issue & shunning as it is well documented.
Why did I leave? I believe what affected me the most was that it was possible to convince many members of Jehovahs Witnesses congregation to testify in behalf of a convicted child molester as in the case of Paul Berry or Erica Garza.
I began to wonder how that could be possible? What on earth type of mind control are we experiencing?
I believe it would be a good idea to try to present a more balanced view of life in the Watchtower and personal responsibility for our own choices however I find it is not a popular notion on this board. That might be simply that the more mature and balanced posters choose not to contribute to many ridiculous threads.
hillary_step

Hi Gravedancer,
Well, unlike some of the oversensitive folk I believe you asked good questions.
As a critic of Sociologists approach I feel that I must respond to this comment.
1) I am not oversensitive.
2) Questions were not asked without personal attachments. They were presented as part of an already pre-concieved viewpoint, which is not a real issue, but when the writer claims to be making a sociological study through them, he leaves himself open to the kind of criticism that I made.
Best regards - HS

Is Mutual Respect Possible?

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