by Frenchy 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • Scorpion


    God is not going to kill you for not being a Jehovah's Witness. This is a teaching pushed by the WT as well as other religions that do not want you to leave their fold. The main thing is your personal relationship with God, not the WT.

  • Friend


    As for the question about millions of dead persons, you were the first one to bring forth that quote, not Frenchy. I remember because, like you said, it's a red herring.

    Yes, on this forum lately I was the one bringing the subject quote into the discussion. However, as Frenchy pointed out, that quote answers the question based upon more than one premise. I have never relied on the first two premises to provide an answer to SC’s question because, as Frenchy pointed out, they are irrelevant to that question. In each case of my citing that material I used the third (3rd) premise because it is the relevant one. Frenchy’s dissertation errantly asserts that the first two premises of the subject comment were somehow the bases for my—and I think others—argument. He has minimized the relevant portion of the cited material without offering anything than his opinion for doing so. He has also dismissed the merit of such comments by belittling them because, according to him, they are "few" in comparison with other comments to his liking. He underscores that dismissal with his opinion that such comments are for "PR" purposes. All that dismissal contradicts his opinion that we should not pretend comments don’t exist because "they are ‘rare.’"

    As for who Jesus judges, the Society’s publications are simply loaded with the teaching that Jehovah has entrusted the ultimate judging of every single individual living now or in the past into the hands of His son, Jesus. It is hardly a new or foreign thought. Following is one easy to find example of that teaching.

    Hence, as the "chief leader" or "pioneer of Life" (Mo), Jesus Christ introduced a new and essential element for gaining eternal life in the sense of being an intermediary or go-between, but he is such in an administrative sense as well. He is God’s High Priest who can effect full cleansing from sin and liberation from sin’s death-dealing effects (Heb 3:1, 2; 4:14; 7:23-25; 8:1-3); he is the appointed Judge into whose hands all judgment is committed, so that he judiciously administers his ransom benefits to individuals among mankind according to their worthiness to live under his kingship (Joh 5:22-27; Ac 10:42, 43); through him the resurrection of the dead also comes. (Joh 5:28, 29; 6:39, 40) Because Jehovah God so ordained to use his Son, "there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."—Ac 4:12; compare 1Jo 5:11-13.—Jesus Christ, Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2, 1988:61

    BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with SC’s final analysis that our relationship with God is the important thing, not with the Society.


    Edited by - Friend on 11 June 2000 21:39:47

  • Scorpion

    If anyone can read between the lines of Friends reply to Frenchy, Friend did it again.

    Reword and and change a few words that Frenchy originally posted so as to make the meaning of what Frenchy said, mean something different.

    I am at the conclusion that Friend is either pathologically sick, or paid by the WTBTS to confuse the issues at hand so as to continue with the fleecing of the ignorant.

  • Friend


    Reword and and [sic] change a few words that Frenchy originally posted so as to make the meaning of what Frenchy said, mean something different.

    You will note, SC, that I quote other persons comments prior to addressing them. Unless they have made some obvious error in spelling or grammar then I quote them verbatim (with this one exception above in your case). Usually that indicates that the expositor wants to deal honestly with what was actually said—otherwise why quote directly when you can more easily divert by paraphrasing! Are you inferring here that I have reworded Frenchy’s statements? If so, then please show me where I have misquoted.

    If you assert that my commentary does not address what Frenchy actually said, that I divert, then please show me that with an explanation. Just saying that I divert does not make it so.

    What I don’t understand around here is why people are more interested in attacking a person rather than an argument. If you disagree with an argument then you must dissect its structure and show were it is wrong. Most often that can be done one of two ways. You can 1) evidence that one or more supporting premises are false or you can 2) show how a certain conclusion does not follow based upon premises offered. You have done none of that, and neither have most others here. Instead many have decided they will just ignore or attack the person. Well, that is all well and good, but it does not resolve anything. Resolution is, I think, a thing most appealing to participants here.


  • Seven

    RedhorseWoman, Speak to me concerning your belief and mine that Jehovah would neveruse membership
    in an organization to determine a person's worthiness for everlasting life.
    A former university professor of mine and recent convert to Islam has provided me with proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that Islam is truly a religion from God. This realization is causing me considerable pain and it's something that I'm going to have to come to terms with myself. We are
    not exclusive-never were and never will be.

    BTW, great post from the French Knight.

  • waiting

    Gee, Friend,

    When you determined I was rude to you and gave me places to see your tons of work, I went, and was impressed with the tons, and told you so.

    You acknowledged my acknowledgement of your written work.

    But we have risen, or lowered, ourselves to arguing over words, Watchtower Words. Have we forgotten that we are Christians - supposed to learn about God's Love? Jesus' Ranson? Faith without works is dead? Emotions? The Bible?

    We have been arguing the Watchtower's written words for a week now. And we have not encouraged each other as brothers.

    You did not aswer my question. If my heart felt, at the time of Armageddon, as I quoted above, would God kill me? Based upon the implied or direct teachings of the WTBTS.

    Thank you - this is definitely not to insult you.

  • katchoo

    I found your comment on the issue of judgment to be very interesting.

    You said
    <i>After all, "Jesus was saying that we should not be judging one another."

    That sentence does not refer to worldly persons. That sentence does refer to Christians and that Christians were not to judge each other.</i>

    Does that mean that JWs feel that it is okay to pass judgment on "worldly" or non-christian people, but that they should not judge one another?
    I am just curious because if that is the case I would like to know where I could find more information about it. That view would make a few more things make sense for me. (not necessarily good sense, but sense nonetheless :))



  • Friend


    My apologies for neglecting to address a most important part of your request.

    You said:

    "I do not want to be one on Jehovah's Witnesses anymore - I do not agree with the Governing Body's teachings. I want to exercise my freedom of speech and tell others my conclusions based upon my personal study of the Bible. I am not lying, cheating, stealing, committing fornication, etc. I love God and Jesus."

    If Armageddon arrives next week and I still feel in my heart this way, according to the Bible, will God kill me? According to the WTBTS's published teachings, implied wording or direct, will God kill me?

    The Society’s view is that you will be okay as long as you remain solidly and honestly in your faith and devotion to Jehovah; always putting that first. The kicker is that they view anyone leaving the confines of "the organization" as stepping outside a protected atmosphere, on prone to severely endanger a persons faith. The Society offers little hope for persons leaving that protective element, but neither do they absolutely rule out their success. In fact, the Society has often related experiences of persons who remained solid in the faith despite being somewhat isolated. (Compare the experience related of Cyril Lucaris in the February 15, 2000 issue of The Watchtower.)


  • Frenchy

    Thanks for the hug, Red, right back at ya'! Your and Path's comments about the unacceptability of the notion that membership in an organization is a requirement for salvation is one shared by many people.
    No, Maxee, I cannot imagine Jesus saying that.
    Welcome aboard, katchoo. I look forward to your posts.
    SC, thanks. Waiting, thank you too , I appreciate your response. I quite agree with your assessment of what has come to be named comment #3:

    I've never heard comment #3 you quoted above referred to worldly people. After all, "Jesus was saying that we should not be judging one another." That sentence does not refer to worldly persons. That sentence does refer to Christians and that Christians were not to judge each other.

    No Witness applies this to worldly people. It is an excellent example of WTS 'language'. I commented only briefly on that so-called comment #3 but it was not because there was nothing to say about it nor does it in any way contradict my line of reasoning. Actually, a close examination of the text will show it's true meaning as you have already deduced, waiting.

    Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours

    Who is this 'one another'? Is that term defined here? No. Could it mean the world in general? To a worldly person, certainly. To a Witness reading this, what would 'one another' suggest? Yep, you got it. WTS language, double meanings. The next sentence is just a filler. It goes without saying that outward appearances do not mean anything to God. It does not answer the question that was posed. Now had that sentence been : "God looks at one's heart, not one's religion" . Now that would have been pertinent to the question. That would have been a definitive answer. And now for the last sentence about God having committed the judging to Jesus and not ours, what does this really mean? It's a vague reference to John 5:22. It's a deliberate sidestepping of the question. The question had nothing to do with whether God or Jesus was going to do the actual judging. As a matter of fact the previous sentence says that "God...judges mercifully" . Why, at this point, throw in the second sentence? Taken at face value it appears to be a contradiction. Why do that at this time? Is the question about who will judge? No. Then why bring it up? Now had that sentence been something like: "We do not presume to judge who will and who will not be saved based on their religion. God is not bound by religious boundaries in his judging. Christianity itself is a religion, everything else is man-made", then it would have been more of a response to the question. But the society could not state it in such a way because then the Witnesses would become confused by such a straightforward response. They chose, rather, to obscure the answer by clever use of the WTS language. One statement that would mean one thing to a 'worldly' person and the complete opposite to a Witness. Very cleverly done. Almost diabolic, wouldn't you say?

  • Friend

    Ouch! I cannot believe some of the things asserted on this forum.

    “Jesus was saying that we should not be judging one another…(Matt. 7:1-5)”

    No Witness applies [that statement above] to worldly people.

    Well, here are three short references disputing that claim (all emphasis added):

    Further, Jesus counseled his followers, not to complain about “the straw” of faults observed in our fellow humans, but to be well aware of the larger “rafter” of shortcomings that we ourselves have. (Matthew 7:1-5)—Is All Complaining Bad?, The Watchtower, 1997 21/1: 30

    He tells us as disciples that if we, as imperfect, sinful creatures, do not want to be judged and condemned ourselves, then we should not take it upon ourselves arbitrarily to judge and condemn our neighbor. (Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37; compare Romans 2:1-3.)—Wrong Desires Destructive, Commentary on James, 1979: 4

    The way to life is that of abiding by Jesus’ teachings. But this is not easy to do. The Pharisees, for example, tend to judge others harshly, and likely many imitate them. So as Jesus continues his Sermon on the Mount, he gives this admonition: “Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged.”….

    This does not mean that Jesus’ disciples are to use no discernment in connection with other people,….—The Most Famous Sermon Ever Given, Greatest Man, 1991: Chapter 35

    Busying ourselves trying to read between the lines is a bad habit until we first read what is actually on the lines.


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