Get your story straight JR & WTBS

by Nanoprobe 30 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Well Killer,

    That is not exactly true.

    What we actually have is a list of investigations done by a bunch of janitors and painters. These untrained professionals used their improper determination of "guilt" when conducting investigations and going on evidence collecting binges.

    The facts are the facts. There are a lot of accusations made by young innocent people. The WTS never took a lot of these to the police like they should have. Instead they investigated them and then covered them up.

    hawk

  • killer
    killer

    What part was not true? I already agreed that yes there is a problem on the way the society deal with these accusations, im just tryin to point out that a large number of cases reported are false but still noted onto the database, meaning that even if there was 20k names on it, its most likely that not even half these were true cases. People are saying that there are 20 odd thousand paedo's in the religion i just wanted to stress that that number even if was a correct amount which is doubtfull, would not just contain Paedophiles but also those that are suspected/accused, meaning the actual number of paedophiles on the database is most like very low, hence is why im saying this is being made into a much bigger issue than it actually is. People should sujest ways of correcting the problem not attacking it and making it a bigger problem than it already is.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    I see your point.

    But !!!! These cases you talk of are only false based only on the 2 witness rule!!!!!!

    They have NOT been properly investigated by the proper authorites. They have been investigated by a bunch of idiot janitors who don't have clue one on evidence gathering techniques. Then as part of their investigation, they have the balls to put a scared little six year old in front of a large adult male who she accuses.

    You are right in a way. Yes the number of "convicted" sickos on the list is likely low. But its ALL those accused who have never been properly investigated. The majority of people and little kids in the world just don't come forward for the hell of it. There are thousands of cases out there and in my opinion the number is much higher than 20,000.

    So just what is the f___ing outrage all about with regards to this database? ALL THOSE CASES need to be properly investigated and NOW!!!!

    hawk

    Edited by - hawkaw on 19 July 2002 9:0:39

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    Stop posting bad things about Jws here and maybe Jehovah will be your friend.

    Hmmm, was that the attitude of Jesus? Remember that he EXPOSED the wrongs of the religious leaders of Jehovah's name people?

    Just to jog your memory: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men's bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way you also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23: 27,28

    Does that sound like someone you know?

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • killer
    killer

    Do you actually believe everything aired on the panorama program? This was a very one sided view of the situation, just because jw's didnt comment on the there side of the accusations doesnt mean that everything that is said by the so called victims is true, for example how do you know that the girl was put up front the accused and then asked to repeat the aligations? Also a mother on the program claimed that she was threatened that if she spoke to the police concerning the matter she would be asked to leave her faith, i know many jw's and i know that if a member of the sect was to speak to the police about an alleged crime they would not be shunned or looked down upon and they would definately not be dismissed/dissfellowshiped all that was crap. The sect never at any stage stops someone or threatens someone with expulsion if they were to go to the authorities about crimes being committed inside the sect. And i have seen this happen before and the person was doubted by the elders but even so they never once stopped her from going to the local authorities. Anyways just be carefull to consider all the facts (, again i repeat there are cases in the religion im not saying there isnt, im just sayin that its being blow out of proportion here.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Killer:

    I think the producers covered that, by showing two senior polic officers being interviewed. Also trhe comment by one that he'd contacted the British branch and let them know that they were coming close to obstructing justice, was damning evidence.

    Ozzie

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    The show was NOT one sided. It was the JW leadership who refused to talk and ran for the hills. If there is anything that Panorama did wrong, the WTS who has taken over 50 cases to the Supreme court will take Panorama to court.

    The facts are the show dealt with victims and police. All cases went to court. IN ALL CASES the perp was convicted BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT (which is a higher standard than the stupid 2 witness rule). Yet the child was shunned.

    You stated:

    The sect never at any stage stops someone or threatens someone with expulsion if they were to go to the authorities about crimes being committed inside the sect.

    Well I don't appreciate being lied too. The November 15, 1973 Watchtower QFR tells us something different now .... doesn't it. The QFR clearly indicates a JW will be clearly "sanctioned" for going to court or tacking stuff outside of the congregation. Its only been since Feb, 2002 when a JW was allowed to go to the authorities for child abuse ONLY but the accuser may not tell anyone else but the police and the accuser must still go to the elders first.

    hawk

    *** w73 11/15 703-4 Questions from Readers ***
    Questions from ReadersDo Pauls words at 1 Corinthians 6:1-7 mean that under no circumstances should a Christian take to court a case involving a fellow believer?U.S.A.

    The apostle Pauls inspired admonition is: "Does anyone of you that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you unfit to try very trivial matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? Why, then, not matters of this life? If, then, you do have matters of this life to be tried, is it the men looked down upon in the congregation that you put in as judges? I am speaking to move you to shame. Is it true that there is not one wise man among you that will be able to judge between his brothers, but brother goes to court with brother, and that before unbelievers? Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for you that you are having lawsuits with one another. Why do you not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why do you not rather let yourselves be defrauded?"1 Cor. 6:1-7.

    Here Paul was showing the Corinthian Christians the inconsistency of taking disputes between Christians before secular tribunals. The judges would be men who were not governed by the lofty principles of Gods law and whose consciences were not trained through a study of his Word. As many of the judges at that time were corrupt and accepted bribes, Christians had little reason to believe that their judgment would be just. Paul referred to them as "unrighteous men." Were Christians to take their disputes before such men, they would be putting in as judges men whom the congregation looked down upon as lacking integrity.

    Then, too, in taking matters before unbelievers for judgment, they would, in effect, be saying that no one in the congregation had the wisdom to judge "matters of this life" among Christians. This was wholly inconsistent with the fact that spirit-anointed Christians as heavenly associate rulers of the Lord Jesus Christ would be judging, not only men, but also angels. And by dragging fellow believers before pagan judges, they would bring great reproach upon Gods name. As outsiders would be led to believe that Christians were no different from other people in being unable to settle differences, the interests of true worship would be injured. It would have been far better for individual Christians to take personal loss rather than to injure the entire congregation by bringing their disputes to public notice.

    In view of the foregoing, would dedicated Christians today go before secular courts if that were to injure the advancement of true worship or misrepresent it in the eyes of outsiders? No. Of course, as all other people, true Christians are still imperfect humans. They make mistakes, and problems arise in connection with business matters and the like. But differences of this nature ought to be settled within the congregation, for Gods Word provides the needed guidelines and there are men in the congregation who are well grounded in the Bible.

    However, if a Christian refuses to correct a serious wrong when it is made clear to him by elders serving in judicial capacity in the congregation, such a one would be expelled. This is in line with Jesus words: "If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector." (Matt. 18:17) Thus, for example, one who defrauded his Christian brother or who failed to provide materially for his wife and children would find himself outside the congregation if he did not repent.1 Tim. 5:8.

    The injured party could thereafter decide whether legal action should be taken in an attempt to force the guilty one, now disfellowshiped, to rectify matters. Of course, the injured party would want to take into consideration whether it would be worth the time and expense as well as whether the congregation could still come into disrepute by bringing to public attention the actions of one of its former members. If the wronged Christian conscientiously felt that Gods name would not be reproached and legal action was definitely needed, he would not necessarily be acting contrary to the spirit of Pauls counsel if he were to take to court one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation. Jehovah God has permitted secular authority to serve as his instrument in bringing lawbreakers to justice, and in this case the one wronged would be availing himself of legal help after exhausting the intracongregational means to have the wrong corrected.Rom. 13:3, 4.

    There may even be times when Christian brothers conscientiously feel that they could go to court with fellow believers. This might be to obtain compensation from an insurance company. In some countries the law may specify that certain matters have to be handled in a court, such as wills that may have to be probated by courts. But this does not create adverse publicity or bring reproach upon the congregation. In handling such legal matters that would not affect the congregation adversely, Christians can be governed by what they consider to be best under the circumstances.

    However, if any member of the Christian congregation, without regard for the effect of his action on the good name of the congregation, ignores the counsel from Gods Word on this matter, such one would not be "free from accusation" as a Christian. He would not be one who has "a fine testimony from people on the outside" of the congregation. (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:7) He surely would not be an example for others to imitate, so this would affect the privileges that he might have in the congregation.

  • killer
    killer

    Notice the police officers kept saying "in my opinion" and "i think", these officers spoke there own views and where not speaking officially, hence for legal matters they would have to say "i think blah blah blah the wittnesses should do blah blah blah" people that never watched the program carefully would have noticed that the actual cases were also personal cases, they had no actual evidence to half the things they were saying, and most of these things were from a personal viewpoint. The only part the officers could prove to is that they could not get info out of the sect concerning the issue. The police are always free to carry out there investigations within the law guidlines, and there is no way the sect would break any goverment law in stoping these investigations.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    killer,

    When the "law" talks they repesent the police force.

    They had lots of eveidence or they would be subject to a lawsuit and put the police force at risk of a suit too.

    Keep on burying your head in the sand and protecting the corporation instead of the children.

    hawk

    p.s. - SIMON IF YOU ARE READING THIS THREAD

    PLEASE FIX THE THREAD SO IT CAN BE VIEWED ON THE

    SCREEN PROPERLY

  • avengers
    avengers

    somethin' went wrong I guess, oh well my comment is only worth 2 cents.

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