God loves Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered People

by FusionTheism 61 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Jonathan Drake

  "If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second."

  The entire Old Testament is not the "covenant". The covenant was the oaths taken both by God and Israel. God made a covenant with Israel that if they lived up to his law they'd prosper and Israel agreed. THIS IS THE COVENANT, the mosaic law and the promise to obey. He entire Old Testament is not the covenant, only the events at mount horeb.

  Deut 5:2

  "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb."
  

  
  

  The covenant was a specific event recorded within the Old Testament that was formed at mount horeb.

  Exodus 19:1-24

  Moses on Sinai

  19 In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, [a]on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain.3 Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My [b]own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”

  7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lordhad commanded him. 8 All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.9 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever.” Then Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

  10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘[c]Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or [d]shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.”

  16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were [e]thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the [f]foot of the mountain.

  If you are confused, mount horeb is mount Sinai. Anyway. The covenant which Paul wrote was faulty was the law covenant formed at Sinai - NOT the Old Testament.

  youre wrong

  
  
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  Jonathan Drake

  Here's some more for you; if you're going to use the bible you need to be thorough.

  That verse you quote in chapter 8 is a continuance from chapter 7 in which Paul even specifies himself that he's talking about the law not the entire Old Testament.

  Hebrews 7:18, 19

  For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
  
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  freemindfade

  FT you completely missed my point. I can't force you to do anything.

  I feel you look at the bible as truth FIRST. Instead of looking at it without bias then deciding if it's truth or not. I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm just telling you if you can completely let it go. And really look at it from this side. You may or may not go back. That's not forcing. But at least you could rest assured you TRULY saw it from both sides. We've all been on your side. Many for decades. Have you ever been on this end, the view from here is extremely enlightening. Just telling you my experience.

  Getting into a debate about this stuff and wasting all this time is like trying to decide who would win in a fight batman or superman. It's just anecdotal because it's fiction.
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  FusionTheism

  Jonathan,

  That old covenant, as the rest of Hebrews makes absolutely clear, included the Commands given to Moses, and the Priests.

  This would mean Hebrews 8:13 is declaring that the Commands found in the Mosaic Covenant in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers have been made obsolete and replaced.
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  FusionTheism

  Freemindfade,

  But isn't your belief that people cannot legitimately view the Bible in a way different from the way you view it -- isn't that a form of close-mindedness and also trying to make people conform to your way of thinking instead of actually thinking for themselves, and having different views than you do?
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  Jonathan Drake

  That's an arguable statement FT, because technically Paul was only referring to the mosaic law not the Ten Commandments. But I couldn't care less what you think about that specifically, what I care about is this:

  you originally said,

  Hebrews chapter 8 says the Old Testament was faulty, has been replaced by Jesus' New Covenant, and has become obsolete.
  

  And my entire point, which you just agreed with, is that you were wrong and Paul was not saying the Old Testament was faulty, only the law covenant.

  The Old Testament is not just the first few books of the bible, and the covenant doesn't even take up the whole of these only a fraction.
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  Jonathan Drake

  FusionTheism5 minutes ago
  

  Freemindfade,

  But isn't your belief that people cannot legitimately view the Bible in a way different from the way you view it

  I know this is directed at FMF but I'm going to interject.

  the contention of most people with the bible isn't that there is one true way to view it and that that should be shared by all - that is a position taken by every Christian denomination. The contention is that the archaic book from a barbaric time should be held responsible for any and all posible interpretations there of - not just the good ones.

  The bad results of terrible interpretations of this book far exceed the good and because of this fact the book should be viewed critically and not as sacred. It should have no place in any decision making process, especially by any person in a place of office or with some position responsibility.
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  freemindfade

  FT I spent 30+ years studying this piece of $HIT book. Everytime I go to the meeting now or listen to these debates. Or watch archeology and history docs I give the bible the same courtesy. "Convince me" you know what? It doesn't. I'm not blinded by belief. I leave my beliefs wide open. But that being said I have to be rational. The bible is easily one of the biggest insults to human rational we have had to experience. It's responsible for great periods of darkness in human history and is behind most of the earths oppression and disgusting acts. I think I've given this book full of garbage, hate, superstition, genocide, rape, racism, slavery, incest, bigotry... should I go on? I have given this book too much credence before and I in all good concious I can honestly say anyone who wants to guide their life by a library of ideas that promote what I mentioned above they can take the thickest version of it and shove it up their righteous @$$. Bible = bad. If it walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Swims like a duck....

  FT believe all you want my friend it's your life. You can believe in Santa clause and tooth fairies too if you like. I will do my best not to preach to you and talk you out of it. Because I see you on here preaching like a bible thumping witness and condemning everyone else for bring closed minded. It's epically distasteful. Peace
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  jws

  IMO, the bible is clearly against homosexuals. We're not talking about some "god loves all" stuff. We're talking specific verses where it specifically mentions gay people (or at least gay men):

  Leviticus 18:22: Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

  1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

  Funny how people who try to reconcile things will point to Leviticus as part of the Law and therefore old, but ignore Corinthians.
  

  There is no reconciliation. It's an ancient book written by middle-easterners. Who cares what it says? If you're going to believe the Bible, you have to cherry-pick to get it to say what you want it to.

  Forget the cherry-picking and just leave it alone. Being gay is what some people are. There's no "wrong" about it. And you don't need some ancient book to justify it. Just do what feels right as long as it's with consenting adults and nobody gets hurt.

  
  
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  LisaRose

  Some of the new testament writers did write that homosexuality was a sin, but that does not mean they were necessarily right.

  Jonathan Drake

  This is why people like you need treatment.

  People like me? What do you mean by that? And do you think I need treatment because I support the right of Christians to believe what they want? That's patently ridiculous. You do know I am an atheist, right?
  

  You are an Atheist telling Christians how to be Christians?

  are you a disciple telling the apostles how to teach?

  I am not a disciple of anything, I am saying Christians have a right to interpret the scriptures anyway they want and to choose what they believe. It astounds me that some atheists demand they follow their own interpretation of scripture or be atheists. It smacks of the black and white thinking of the Watchtower. There. I said it and I'm not sorry.