Xandit, may I suggest something? Ask your C.O. to include the phrase "Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only ones that are approved by God" in any of his talks that he will be giving in your congregation.
PROOF from the WT
…please give concise answers to your questions. I did.
No, you did not. If you insist otherwise then you are dishonest.
Regarding the initial subject of salvation, following are the two most important questions asked relevant to your ranting:
1. Do JWs a) believe that Jehovah will ultimately judge each of us or b) do JWs believe they will do that?
2. Has Jehovah provided Jehovah’s Witnesses a preview of his judgments for each individual?
Since you have already demonstrated a complete lack of logical skills, let me explain that question one (1) is multiple choice. The answer can be as simple as saying, "A", or, "B." Answering question two (2) is as simple as saying, "Yes" or, "No." Can you handle that?
You have not answered those questions in any sort of fashion. You have responded to them though, but only by avoiding them. I think you do not want to answer them because the simple answers dispel your notions about what the Society teaches at the heart of the issue of salvation—a teaching that disagrees with your prejudiced opinion.
As for the rest of your nonsense (i.e., about Sodomites/resurrection) , you have yet to discern that even our earliest Christian friends made mistakes on several fronts for as long as they lived. Mistakes were made as individuals and collectively. That means that whether an individual or group makes mistakes is not necessarily corollary to Christianity. (I wonder if you comprehend that thought.) On the other hand, while teachings are important, the far more important issue is that of heart condition. Though the earliest Christian friends made mistakes in conduct and teaching what made them stand out was their strong and faithful hearts. They pressed on in their godly devotion regardless of their own shortcomings. That devotion was manifest to others by their relentless evangelizing spirit. They kept preaching and teaching and trying to live accordingly as best they could.
SC, I really am not sure if you comprehend all of this, but I hope you do. All the hoopla over the issue of salvation as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses is little more than persons either ignorantly or intentionally turning a blind eye to ALL that is taught by us regarding salvation and who can be saved.
A good line to include in a talk is one that agrees with our beliefs as Jehovah’s Witnesses. The man can say,
"Do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they are the only ones who will be saved? No, we do not believe that."
Alternately the man could say,
"Do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they are the only ones who will be saved? We believe we practice the right form of worship but God has committed judgment of our salvation into Jesus’ hands, not ours. We cannot say who will be saved for sure and who will not; no one can because only God can read hearts."
Those expressions might disagree with your views, Frenchy, but they are the truth of what we teach.
Xandit: The following appears in the thread "reply to SC" in response to one of your posts. I am reproducing it here in case you don't get to the other one.
Recently we have had some posters who, shall we say, are less than polite, some downright sarcastic and mean. Perhaps they learned their manners from participation on other boards where such behavior is the norm. The point is, however, that we have all become somewhat hesitant (if not downright paranoid) in responding wholeheartedly to a new poster the way that we do to each other (those of us who have been here from the start).
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt as is only right. I'm going to assume that you are sincere in asking what you did. I'm going to assume that you will make a response to my reply concerning your request, namely:
How about one clear statement that says anyone who isn't a Witness (that as in card carrying publisher, etc.) won't survive Armageddon.
In response to that inquiry I offer you the following from The Watchtower 1989, 9/1, page 19. The study article is Remaining Organized for Survival into the Millenium
Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.
Does that meet the criteria of your request?
You mentioned in another thread that of all the Witnesses that you had questioned on this subject told you they were not under that impression. I believe you completely in this regard. Most Witnesses do not believe this nonesense but the fact remains that this is what the Society teaches. Your C.O. knows about that article and he knows what the Society is, and has been, pushing for decades on the matter. Ask him.
I stand by what I posted on that thread.
-Say what you mean, mean what you say-
So nice to hear from you. Your comments did not exactly satisfy the request.
You cited the following:
Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.—Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium, The Watchtower, 1989 9/1: 19
I too will cite a comment published by the Society followed by a question. If you will honor it with an answer I would appreciate it. I am not looking to cause trouble. I just want an honest evaluation.
Do Witnesses believe that their religion is the only right one?
Anyone who is serious about his religion should think that it is the right one. Otherwise, why would he or she be involved in it? Christians are admonished: "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith. Ephesians 4:5 confirms this, mentioning "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Jesus did not agree with the modern, relaxed view that there are many roads, many religions, all leading to salvation. Instead, he said: "Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they have found it. Otherwise, they would look for another religion.—Matthew 7:14.
Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved?
No. Many millions that have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the "great tribulation," and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21.—Questions Often Asked by Interested Persons, Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Twentieth Century, 1989:29.
Here is my question to you:
Do you think our two (2) citations are unrelated to, oppose, support or accommodate one another? If you feel they are in outright opposition to each other then why?
It is possible that they are in opposition, but I do not think that is the case because it is also possible that each comment accommodates the other. The accommodation is as follows:
The Society’s teachings about itself have to do with their viewpoint of who is living and teaching as Christians. They see such merit in their beliefs and resulting aspirations that, quite naturally, they see it as a must for insuring a good future. Whereas the Society’s teachings about ultimate salvation represent the bottom line of who will or will not be saved, who will actually get saved. They teach unequivocally that only God can and will make that judgment. Since God makes that judgment—a judgment He has place in Jesus’ hands—then in spite of their religious convictions Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach that they cannot say who will or will not be saved during that judgment. Since God does that judging they yield that ultimately he decides who is right and wrong and who is saved or destroyed.
As a point of logic, if two different ideas can be accommodated without conflict then they are not opposed to each other.
As for who each of us should ask, there is a lot of presuming about what people are and are not around here. Aside from that, I’d rather stick with what we can evidence from the very publications that promulgate the stuff. Deciding issues based upon another persons supposed opinion is at least two (3) steps away from the horse’s mouth and it is circular because anyone invoking such an idea will only presume their conclusion is the right one and thus offer that as the other persons thinking. Don’t you agree?
As for standing behind something (i.e., supporting it) I will only do so as long as I am convinced it is tenable. I will not be so bullheaded to stand behind anything after it is evidenced as wrong, or in the case of a Christian association, that it is evidenced as being less than the Bible describes of the Master’s earliest followers.
Edited by - Friend on 10 June 2000 13:8:55
You are the closest thing to a glitering Jem of colossal ignorance I have seen in some time.
Yes, if you say so, I am dishonest. After all, I have been teaching several lies for the WTBTS for the last 7 years and have ignored the facts because I was told to do so.
AS far as your questions, they have nothing to do with what the WT teaches about Salvation being found in the WT organization. Your lack of comprehending this leaves me to the conclusion that you are trying to twist the facts and teach a form of twisted fallacy that those of us with a mind should avoid. You keep saying that JWs are the ones teaching what they believe about Salvation, Why? Is it not the WT that teaches the Witness on what to believe?
I am aware of the ealiest Christians making mistakes. Were they allowed to question those taking the lead? Did those early Christians mindlessly accept things taught without looking at the facts and discarding the lies? Were they shunned for not conforming to what appeared by the majority to be "truth"?
You still did not explain why all the differences and changes in the teachings of the Wt about the Sodomites nor did you answer my questions. Let me refresh your selective memory.
Please answer this question: Did the Governing Body recieve these changes from communication with God or did they forget what was originally taught and make these changes on their own? Or better yet, are they really Jehovah's channel of communication? Does Jehovah play with our minds with doctrinal flip flops or is it the GB that we have to follow hook line and sinker that are prone to mistakes that can affect us in a very negative way?
Your justification of man made errors by the WT does not excuse them from Gods Jugdment nor does it excuse us for teaching such errors.
All those who were disfellowshipped and shunned and seperated from family and friends for disagreeing with the fallacies of the WT are the ones paying the price for the mistakes of men. Now tell me how we should press onward in a relentless evangelizing spirit as you put it, knowing the wrong dealt out to those that were innocent and condemned as guilty by the WT and the ones taking the lead (elders).
I see you to be ignoring facts and not being able to answer questions with a yes or no.
To Frenchy and Friend:
Frenchy it was an honest question. I'd ask that you not impugn my motives until you know me better. Your suggestion regarding the CO seems a little gratuitous.
The statement you quoted is pretty direct alright, I remember it now. I would say that it has to be weighed in the light of Friends quotes and comments. There certainly is a dichotomy here but I've always said consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Of course someone else said it first.
Friend, you make a lot of sense to me. I suppose it's possible to sein almost any kind of a statement out of the vast body of written material that the Organization has produced but I'd have to say on balance that absolute statements about only Witnesses surviving Armageddon are rare. Rare enough that most Witnesses don't see it that way. I'd say our current understanding of the division of the sheep and goats almost precludes getting too definite on the subject.
I've just come from a long time at the post WHAT SIMON DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW, and specifically Friend's irrated answer to me. (I asked him too many questions and was rude.)
But most fascinating is the links that he gives of discussions that he has had, or is currently having on different websites. I have been reading intently for over an hour and greatly impressed by Friend's articulation on many matters - and I'm only half way through his posts.
He was right - he has written "tons". Please review Friend's posts - I swear, even if I were at the Kingdom Hall listening to our visiting CO, or someone from Bethel, I could not listen to a better discussion on the value of our Society.
It was most spiritually refreshing. Thank you, Friend.
In your response to Frenchy you qouted Jws in the 20th century.
It says many millions that were not JWs will be resurrected and have the opportunity for life.
Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and rightousness before the great tribulation, " and they will gain salvation.
I ask, how do those who will be resurrected according to the WT and the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses gain the opportunity for life?
Also, how will those that chose to take a stand for truth gain salvation before the great tribulation?
Do we have to belong to the Jehovah's Witness belief system to gain that salvation? Please answer this question with a yes or no.
I saw the links and discussions Friend has posted. He is articulate I must admit. So is the President of the United States as well as many politicians.
If you are able to read between the lines, you will see that anyone, even Adolf Hitler can convince many.
Clinton and Hitler don't defend the Society - all the time.
I concede, I may be wrong, but just think about it.
Is Clinton articulate?