PROOF from the WT

by Scorpion 67 Replies latest jw friends

  • Scorpion


  • Scorpion

    It is after 12am and I worked from 8:30am till 10pm tonight. I am still conducting some business at the moment, so I will try to get as much of this done tonight as I can. My first post did not make it for some strange reason. I will post this topic in intervals.

    This is in reply to the topic Apostolic succession. I told Friend that I would post this tonight. If I make an error in qoutes, please let me know. I am open for critism. I am also very tired so bare with me.

    Friend said that the idea of the WT teaching apostolic succession was a false notion. I agree. The WT (TODAY) does not as far as I know teach this. At one time, the WT did. If anyone has the (Karatol Edition, 1918 of Studies in the Scriptures Scriptures turn to page 64. You will see that C.T.Russell likened himself and ranked himself above St Paul, St John, Arius, Waldo, Wycliff and Luther. These are what Russell taught were the six Messengers of the Church, Russell being the Seventh Messenger. Friend I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the WT today does not claim apostolic succession. The WT does claim as we do as members that we have the truth and one true religion. Therefore Jehovah is behind us as he was the apostles. What does the WT claim though as far as salvation and their role in it?

  • Scorpion

    First I would like to qoute what Friend said, these are posts made in the topic apostolic succession. I am only taking a few of the qoutes. If you wish to check back, I will post the date and time.

    Friend said June 5,2000 11:33am, (Witnesses do not teach that Jehovah will only judge them as acceptable). Friend then qouted the brochure JWs in the Twentieth Century page 29. Friend also said JWs uniquely practice the Christianity of the Bible.

    June 6, 2000 9:08pm Friend said,(We do not teach salvation (or not) of any individual is determined by us. Rather we teach that only God through his son will make that judgement.
    Friend also said, (I do not know a single JW in their right mind that would tell you otherwise.

    This leads me to think that we as JWs hide what the WT has taught us. I guess we all are not in our right minds for hiding the truth about what we are taught.

  • Scorpion

    Now for the real topic at hand.


    The WT says that it is the only means of salvation. It also in effect denies the Ransom of Christ by bilittling it as of no real importance.

    ***w93 9/15 22 They Compassionately shepard the Little Sheep***
    But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69

    ***w81 11/15 21 'Stay Awake and Keep Your Senses'***
    And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a great war cry."

    ***w82 7/1 25 What Birth of the Nation Has Meant for Mankind***
    22 Although meriting due consideration in the inspired Bible, the salvation of the human race from sin and death and bondage to Satan the Devil and his organization is not the most important thing,

    [my comment on the above. The sacrafice of Jesus merits consideration BUT it is not of real importance???]

    ***w92 11/15 21 Serve Jehovah Loyally***
    Nowhere else to Go
    12 We will be impelled to serve Jehovah loyally with his organization if we remeber that there is nowhere else to go for life eternal. When Jesus' statements cause many disciples to go off to the things behind.' he asked his apostles:" You do not want to go also do you?" Peter replied: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God."-John 6:66-69

  • Scorpion

    ***w92 11/15 21 Serve Jehovah Loyally***
    Our hearts should impell us to cooperate wit Jehovah's organization because we know that it alone is directed by his spirit and is making known his name and purpose.

    ***w91 9/15 17 "Help Me Out Where I Need Faith!"***
    12 To ensure their salvation, Noah and his family needed to exercise faith. This meant following instructions and the leadings of God's holy spirit. During the great tribulation, it will be just as imperative that we follow the leadings of the holy spirit and obey Jehovah's instructions through his organization.

  • Scorpion

    ***g84 8/22 28 From Our Readers***
    The Catholic Church occupies a very significant position in the world and claims to be the way of salvation for hundreds of millions of people. Any organization that assumes that position should be willing to submit to scutiny and critism. All who criticize have the obligation to be truthful in presenting the facts and fair and objective in assessing such. In both respects we try to live up to that obligation.-ED.

    This quote I find ironic. 'Jehovah's organization' will not allow itself to be scrutinized by it's members. If they do so, then they are reprimanded. All others that do so are labled apostates or opposers.

  • Scorpion

    "We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry-be it worshipful gestures toward an image or a symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." The Watchtower, 11/1/1990, p.26

  • Frenchy

    I have been following your posts. There is no question by any reasonable person who is familiar with JW teaching, let alone a Witness who has been such for a long time, that we do preach that there is no salvation outside the organization. Isolated quotations from publications obviously designed for public relations only highlight the double talk.
    That doctrine of 'we (and we alone) have THE truth' is the backbone of the Witness mentality. This is the whip and the carrot that is used to push field service activity. This is the whip and the carrot used to push meeting attendance. This is so basic to our faith that it is ingrained within us. This is what gives us that superior attitude that so angers people 'of the world'.
    Any argument against that mindset is either just argumentative or is a public relations ploy. Witnesses never talk about anyone else being correct as far as salvation is concerned. We are of the mindset that unless a person becomes a witness, he will perish at Armageddon. We group all other religions together and call them Babylon the Great, the spiritual harlot. We talk about her utter destruction at Armageddon with the same blood thirsty zeal as a Pentecostal preacher preaching hellfire. We call the organization God's modern day 'ark' of salvation.
    Note the following quote from km 11/96, page one.

    Their lives are at stake. You are morally obligated to carry out your commission to help them.
    We have been divinely commissioned to sound a warning. Jehovah will soon bring an end to this entire wicked system of things. Millions of lives hang in the balance. Would it be right for us to ignore the peril to others and be concerned only about saving ourselves? Of course not. We are morally obligated to help save the lives of others.—1 Tim. 4:16.

    Now can someone read this and honestly say that this is not our philosophy? "We have been divinely commissioned" Who is we? I think we all know the answer to that.
    km 1/92 page 1

    Knowledge Makes Us Responsible: The fact that lives are at stake should move us to be diligent in making return visits. (John 17:3) Our knowledge of Jehovah's judgment and the nearness of Armageddon should incite us not only to warn the wicked but also to help those who are 'sighing and groaning because of the detestable things happening on earth.' (Ezek. 9:4) They need to be brought into association with Jehovah's visible organization.

    Please note the second sentence and how it relates to the last sentence. Now, how can someone say that we do not associate salvation exclusively with being a JW?
    km 1/88, p. 8

    Lives are at stake—theirs and ours. (1 Tim. 4:16) We want to help others to come to know Jehovah so that they too can call on his name to be saved.—Acts 2:21.

    . What does this tell us? What does it mean to a witness to 'come to know Jehovah?'

  • Friend


    Your presentation on this thread appears to be a response to conclusions I have argued on the thread titled Apostolic Succession. However, a response is not counter argument. I see nothing on this thread so far from anyone that presents counter-argument to that presented on the other thread. For instance, I laid out several logical questions that a successful counter-argument needs to resolve. Presentations here have so far left those questions unresolved, indeed they have been ignored entirely. Besides that I also addressed the possible relationships between two different ideas and how those possible relationships help us resolve the sum of what it actually being taught.

    Besides that, you have also misrepresented me on this thread on a number of points. It appears that is inadvertent, stemming from not fully following what was said earlier. An example is where you say, “Friend also said JWs uniquely practice the Christianity of the Bible.” What I actually said is that that is what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach. I have not expressed that as a personal conviction, which is what your sentence portrays.

    Do Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that they have the only true religion? Yes, that is what they teach.

    Do Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that ultimately Jehovah decides who is right and who is wrong and who gains salvation and who does not? Yes, they teach that as well.

    Some people see conflict in those teaches when that is not in fact the case. It is true that those teachings are non-supportive toward one another but it is not true that they oppose one another either, and that is the flaw in your deductions. Since there are other options then your apparent “this or that” deduction is no less than a black and white fallacy, which is called a bifurcation. Another option, which fits perfectly, is that the two teachings accommodate one another without contradiction. Since my comments on the Apostolic Succession thread already addressed this in some detail I will let readers go back and consider those comments there. If anyone wants to discuss those fundamental points toward resolving the conflicting conclusions about what we teach on the subject of salvation then I am willing to participate. But I see no need in participating when critical details or fundamental issues are not being addressed.

    Please do not misunderstand me, SC. The investment of time manifested in your presentation represents seriousness about the subject. My comments here are not intended as any sort of personal affront to you or anyone else. I just see where critical resolutions are being left undone making corresponding conclusions suspect at best.


  • Seven

    Friend, Remember Saul Alinsky? By studying his rules and developing counteractive strategies a level playing field can be attained, especially during high profile public debate and decisionmaking. He devised 13 Rules for Radicals. I could only recall or find 8 of them online. I'll bet the farm that you can supply the missing five. Do ya know?
    1. Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.
    2. Never go outside the expertise of your people. Feeling secure stiffens the backbone.
    3. Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainity.
    4. Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000.
    5. Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. There's no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
    6. A good tactic is one your people enjoy. They'll
    keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They'll even suggest better ones.
    7. Keep the pressure on. Never let up. Keep trying
    new tactics to keep the opposition off balance. As the enemy masters one approach, hit them with something new.
    8. Pick the target and freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people, not institutions. People hurt faster
    than institutions.
    All of his books are out of print and I haven't time to search used book stores. I think the book in question was copyrighted around 1971. Do you have it in your collection?

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