I am wondering if she is baptized already. If not, she may be planning to do this soon which would prompt the elders to have a discussion with her about association with you as a disfellowshipped person.
16-year-old JW daughter doesn't want to visit, I have visitation rights
by BetterGuyNow 50 Replies latest members private
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BetterGuyNow
She was baptized at 13. THIRTEEN. She can't be trusted to be behind the wheel of a car, but make a decision that will impact you for the rest of your life? Why not.
I actually went to her baptism. It was tough to be there but I wanted to support her. She said in her letter to me that me being there for her baptism meant a lot to her. I didn't enjoy being there, but I don't regret it.
Following her baptism, nothing changed. She came to visit like usual, we had the same great time. When we made arrangements for the visit this summer, she said something that I thought was wonderfuul, but I realize now was part of the setup. She told me she wanted as much time as possible. It has been a bit of a battle trying to get all the time I want when she comes out. Her mom calls frequently, in fact one year, they had a family study over the phone. Once they decided to split the visit. While she was out, they arranged for her mom to come get her and then she would come back for a few weeks later on. But not so surprisingly, it didn't work out. After a few years of increasing difficulty in getting the time I wanted, she told she wanted to be with me as long as she could. I should have seen it coming.
I called Brooklyn to find out why. Why now? What talk was there, what magazine article, what district part made her think this is the time? I got nothing from the service desk, whether that's the truth or not.
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cultBgone
BGN, I would say that the clue is in your opening post, where you indicated that your daughter would become more relaxed the longer she was with you.
I am quite sure that her "more relaxed" attitude (i.e. her real personality) was noticed upon her arrival home, and mommy dearest didn't like it one bit.
With all the pressure from the convention talks or circuit overseer visits about not associating with non-jdubs, the pressure has been ratcheted up on the rand & file to cut association with non-believers. Even their parents.
My heart aches for your pain.
Best advice: always, always, always deal with dubs on an emotional level -- with absolutely zero discussion about their practices/doctrines/beliefs/actions etc. The emotional connection is the true one, and the one that will help her wake up some day.
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ToesUp
You sound like a great Dad. Keep loving her. I agree completely with Simons advice. As much as you are hurting, let her know you will ALWAYS be there for her.
I lost my wonderful Dad a few years ago. I knew he would ALWAYS be there for me.
It's just a matter of time before she will figure out what this "loving religion" has to offer.
Hang in there! Thoughts are with you.
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BetterGuyNow
I so appreciate the comments. I hadn't thought much about trying to keep religion completely out of it and let her figure that out on her own.
cultBgone - That's very likely. Her mother is a very judgemental person. When my daughter would come to visit, for the first few days or week she just had something to say about everything. Whether on television, people on the street or store, the news... negative comments repeatedly. I'd gently remind her that we aren't here to judge others and we don't know what they're going through, and so on. And eventually she'd relax. Some of this comes from being a Witness. I never knew I was such a judgemental dick until I left. I thought I was a pretty caring person. But when you hear day in and day out how you're going to live forever and everyone else isn't, it's hard not to feel that speaks to quality of individual rather than religious preference. She definitely has that, and that attitude is also a defining feature of her mother. When we were still married and I was at the end of my rope, I asked her if she could please just not be negative for one day; only say kind things. She said she couldn't do that. So this is the person she lives with. When she comes out to visit, these tendencies are there, but we are a very open and accepting family. And while I am at best agnostic, I believe I am far more Christ-like in my treatment of others than I ever was as a Witness.
You all are so great. I want you to know why I feel this way. Maybe a little understanding of what post-JW was like for me.
When I decided to not try to go back after my DF, I was alone. My ex-wife and I had an agreement that we wouldn't have a lawyer for the divorce, we would just separate our things. I told her to take what she wanted (since she was moving out of state) and I would take what was left. When I returned to our home after she had moved, she left me my truck and tools, my computer, my television, my clothes, and a single place setting in the kitchen. She took every other piece of our 13 years of marriage. Further, I soon got a notice from a lawyer she retained behind my back that instead of splitting the house sale that I bought with my inheritence from my grandmother, they wanted 70%, and if I fought it, they were going to get more. The only family I knew were Witnesses, all my friends were Witnesses, and I was out of work due to an injury since before my divorce... I could not be more alone, and broke. Meanwhile, she allowed her lawyer to grossly overstate what my business was making (it had just started and I was pretty much making nothing) and she was trying to get spousal support at the same time. This dropped off when she remarried two weeks after the divorce was final to a guy who was studying in her new hall. I went from being a family in a house as a Witness to homeless 35-year-old living in my truck with my few things in storage trying to find work. In fact, my first visit with my daughter was in the state to which they moved; I would pick her up from her mother's apartment and spend the day with her, drop her off in the evening, and sleep in my truck until the morning. I asked my ex if I could take a shower, but she refused because it wouldn't look right, so I enjoyed the hospitality of the nearest gas station. During this time, I questioned my decision repeatedly. I was DFd, so it's not as though I could stay in someone's spare room, but at least if I was going to the meetings, I would be around my friends and family. But after so many years of the hypocrisy and emotional torture I felt being there, I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
Before long, my fledgling business I had started just a few months before my divorce started to take off. I met people. I got into a relationship. I started developing real friends, and not once was I asked, "How are you doing spiritually?" Two years after the change of life, I had a successful business, was engaged, had a great relationship with my still-in daughter, and was starting to accomplish the things in life I wanted to do.
When my daughter left me in August, I sunk again. Everything suffered. She had always been there, all 16 years of her life, and I didn't care about her turning 18 because it hadn't happened yet. She was still there. And then she was gone. With more emotional pain than I can remember ever experiencing, the two of us locked in an embrace and sobbing together, she walked away. And I couldn't stand. For weeks afterwards, hearing someone talk about their children would send me searching for tissue. But here's the deal: I was alone again.
See, my wife, well-meaning as she is, hates the Witnesses. She knows the way my ex treated me, all the while a regular pioneer and in good standing. She knows the horrible things she has done to my relationship with my daughter, and she knows how much I love her. So this shunning has made her angry. It's hard to be sympathetic or helpful when you see red. My sister-in-law, after hearing what happened, wouldn't even talk to me because she was so angry and didn't know what she would say. Everyone I know got mad. But I needed more. I didn't know what I needed, but it wasn't to bash the Witnesses. There's time for that. But when this happened, I just needed to figure out how to work. How to get up in the morning. How to not see a father and daughter holding hands on the street and break down.
And then an old former Witness friend reached out to me a few months ago. I didn't know he was no longer in "the Truth" and warned him that I was DF and not returning. He told me he left 2 years ago. I haven't talked to him in a decade, and with a single conversation, it was as if we had been carrying on just as we had in our teens and 20s. He told me about this site, and I recognized it because I had lurked here before. So, I joined. I posted.
And I found you.
What a relief. You know what I mean because you're already here. I have a brilliant life now, but after my daughter left, I felt alone again, at least in this aspect. How would I ever find someone that actually understood what I was going through? And not use it just as an opportunity to bash the religion at fault, but offer real advice, real help to not only get through this right now, but to set the groundwork to seeing her again. Knowing that it would take a Witness or a former Witness to really get the complications, I thought it was likely I was going to feel alone in this area of my life for maybe forever.
I'm not trying to be dramatic here, but my daughter is a huge part of my life, and that piece was torn out without warning. I didn't know how I was going to replace it. For the first time since August, I feel like there is a way.
Thank you.
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Simon
See, my wife, well-meaning as she is, hates the Witnesses. She knows the way my ex treated me, all the while a regular pioneer and in good standing. She knows the horrible things she has done to my relationship with my daughter, and she knows how much I love her. So this shunning has made her angry. It's hard to be sympathetic or helpful when you see red.
Be careful that she doesn't allow her feelings toward JWs show through her approach toward your daughter.
Not saying she does or will, just something to watch out for. It's an easy mistake to make.
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BetterGuyNow
Thank you, Simon. She has always been awesome with my daughter. As a habit, she always sets money aside to take my daughter school clothes shopping toward the end of the visit. They go do girly things like get their nails done. And when it comes to meetings and field service, she supports her desire to do those things when she is here. We are such a happy family here when she visits.
She told me this last visit that she couldn't wait to turn 18 so she could move out because her mother is driving her crazy. She's talking about going to college (an hour away from me!) which is exciting to me in many ways: in physical closeness, being away from her mother, and that she actually wants to pursue higher education. I had received a scholarship to a university when I was in high school, but higher education was frowned upon in the 80s so I couldn't go. I certainly resented it when a few years later it was considered acceptable (as long as your goal is full time service, but hey, people don't reach their goals all the time!). I don't know what the thoughts are lately, but it still doesn't seem like the elders would actually be encouraging her to move eight hours away from her mother to go to university. Oh, and one hour away from me. :-)
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kairos
That phone call between us was such a great moment.
Can't wait to visit.
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flipper
BETTER GUY NOW- Wow. I really feel for you dude. I'm Kairos's friend as well who lives in the Sierra mountains. Are you entirely sure you weren't married to my JW ex-wife ? Because, dude- that's the wife I lived with for 19 years as a JW. ( Divorced 1998 ) I really empathize as I experienced similar things. My two adult JW daughters ( aged 27 and 26 ) have shunned me and their older brother for 11 years now. It sucks, and it hurts. But the one thing I've learned by reading Steve Hassan's books on mind control is that IF our daughters had control of their own minds- they would choose to be in a relationship with us. But the WT Society IS controlling their minds so they choose to shun us. It has helped me to see this and it has assisted me to not hurt as MUCH by realizing that my daughters are actually mentally ill or disturbed from WT indoctrination and manipulation. If they were in control of their own minds they'd choose to be close to me and my non-witness son.
If you get a chance PLEASE do yourself a favor and read Steve Hassan's books on mind control. It will assist you to see HOW the WT Society has controlled and manipulated not only your daughter, but your wife who in turn manipulates and controls your daughter. It's a psychological thing, has nothing to do with doctrines or the Bible . The controlling WT attitudes DO affect JW's personalities and those superior attitudes trickle down from the top of the organization into most EVERY JW at some point. They copy tactics they learn from WT higher-ups and incorporate those tactics with their own relationships.
You've received great advice from lots of good folks here. I agree that it's smart not to get into any pissing match with your ex-wife over JWisms or doctrines and to approach this from a humanistic outlook or just let your daughter know that you are there for her anytime she may need you. Don't lower to her or her mom's level, but carry yourself higher by still being there for your daughter. With just a couple years before she turns 18- if you force the idea of her visiting you it may harden her in her JW views and believe me- if her mom is like my ex-wife your ex will use that to influence her against you further. Just be there for her, tell her you love her and in time she may grow out of this.
As Magwitch stated, statistics show that 67 % of born-in JW's eventually exit the cult. So you have a 2 in 3 chance that your daughter WILL leave the JW's in time. Patience is the key here for you. Don't add fuel to the fire with your ex-wife. If she's as fanatic as you say- she will look for ANY opportunity to turn your daughter even more against you. Be smart, don't give her that opportunity. If you'd like to chat sometime I will PM you my home and cell phone number. Hang in there friend, we are with you, many of us have been there, experienced this. We are here as a support to you
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flipper
BETTERGUYNOW- Please check your private messages. I sent you a PM. Thanks, Peace out, Mr. Flipper