How could you justify that God killed all firstborn children in Egypt?

by Mr Fool 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Morality is the attribute, or quality, of honesty, virtue, honor, loyalty, righteousness and steadfastness that exists in the confines of that which is given us by God

  You mean the same god that ordered the genocide of people who had the audacity to live on their own land first, which genocide included the slaughter of infants, old people and animals? The same god that not only approved of slavery but codified it? The same god that was just as happy to slaughter his own people as he was in slaughtering "pagan" people?

  If that's what a theist's definition of morality is, I'll stay with the human version. It's much better.

  BTW- I know atheists who have all of the moral characteristics you listed above. Does your god still hate them anyway?

  ---

  St. Teresa of Avila once told god, "If this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few."

  .

  "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -Albert Einstein
• 

  Cold Steel

  What if an entity called man invented god? That is the big question. It is actually the answer.

  Have you read Asimov’s short story, The Last Question?

  .
• 

  cofty

  Coldsteel, its a simple question...

  "In other words, how specifically does your idea of morals differ from just making up what you think is right as you go?"
• 

  DJS

  Coldsteel,

  Your point about morals/integrity and atheism has been addressed numerous times on this forum. You have had to read the responses, and yet you spew the same tired, erroneous nonsense that, without your/a god,atheists will be monsters. We have provided an abundance of empirical data which suggests the following:

  a. The higher an individual's IQ the more likely they are to be atheist.

  b. The more formal education an individual has the more likely they are to be atheist.

  c. The more rational an individual's personality (think Myers Briggs, Intuitive Thinker NT), the more likely they are to be atheist.

  d. The more secular and atheistic a state, nation or region, the more likely it is to be functional with a higher level of integrity.

  At least you boil it down to what typiclaly annoys theists about atheists - what mature, responsibile consenting adults choose to do with their genitalia. Why do you continue to repeat tired, erroneous garbage? Requiring a belief in a deity in order to do the right thing is weak and un-evolved. Atheists typically have figured out how to do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing, and our list of malfeasant behaviors - other than the aforementioned genitalia - would almost certainly match a similar list by a rational caring theist.
• 

  cofty

  So Coldsteel your silence speaks volumes.

  You equate morality with what god says. I ask you the simple question of how you know in a specific instance what god says and the conversation ends.
• 

  Cold Steel

  You mean the same god that ordered the genocide of people who had the audacity to live on their own land first, which genocide included the slaughter of infants, old people and animals? The same god that not only approved of slavery but codified it? The same god that was just as happy to slaughter his own people as he was in slaughtering "pagan" people?

  Shirl, the people living on their own land weren't just folks. They were profligate, degenerate, idolatrous and vicious. Talk about murdering infants, they threw them into a furnace. Their “worship” was almost wholly sexual. In several circumstances, the Lord offered to spare the less wicked people as long as they gave the Israelites safe passage through their lands; however, they feared the Israelites and rejected peace. So in this case, by attacking the Israelites, they brought about their own destruction.

  But as the Israelites wandered in the desert, there also was rebellion in their own ranks. Korah, a first cousin of Moses, instigated a rebellion over the priesthood. Being Levites, they held the lesser priesthood, but they coveted the higher priesthood shared by Moses and Aaron. The Lord, through Moses, separated the two camps. The rebels were subsequently consumed in an earthquake, and 250 princes of Israel, who also coveted the priesthood, were killed by fire. Instead of seeing the Lord’s hand in all this, many in the congregation actually blamed Moses and Aaron for this evil. The Lord then sent a plague among the camps and only through an act of atonement were the people spared. But many still were embittered towards Moses and Aaron.

  The point here is that by rebelling against Moses, the people thought they were in the right. They were warned repeatedly before the Lord took action against them. They had witnessed Moses’ miracles before Pharaoh and the plagues, as well as the miraculous parting of the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptian army. Yet they thought Moses was in the wrong and blamed him for the deaths of the rebels.

  When the people were denied the entrance into the land of promise because of their conduct at the base of Mount Sinai, they determined to attack Canaan anyway, despite the Lord’s admonitions against it. The Canaanites soundly trounced them and yet Moses had forewarned them against the attack.

  So people frequently disagree with the Lord, even when they believed in His existence. They also thought they were right, even when God showed He was against them. The Lord also had to move the Canaanites out of their lands to give it to the Israelites. Had they been a righteous people, they could have integrated themselves into the Israelite culture, but they had their own cultures and their own forms of fertility worship, which was highly repugnant to the Lord. He did not want it to infect the Israelites because, as the form of worship under Moses was monotheism with an emphasis on making people better through mastering their base desires, Canaanite worship was based in decadent and deviant sexual practices and the murder of infants.
• 

  cofty

  Talk about murdering infants, they threw them into a furnace

  So god had Joshua's army murder thousands of infants in cold blood because the people were sacrificing children.

  Your god is a fucking genius.

  This is what happens when you subscribe to ethics by divine fiat. You get 21st century people defending infantide. Otherwise decent men turn into moral reprobates rather than show the courage to condemn their capricious deity.

  Still waiting for an answer to my question.
• 

  Cold Steel

  Your point about morals/integrity and atheism has been addressed numerous times on this forum. You have had to read the responses, and yet you spew the same tired, erroneous nonsense that, without your/a god, atheists will be monsters.

  I never said that. I said that they, or anyone, could be monsters and that there would be no consequences, except what man administered.

  But I will say this. No moral set of laws can come from men alone. Men, of themselves, do not produce virtuous laws that result in the betterment of mankind. It's impossible given the nature of man. And if I seem to "spew" the same "tired" stuff, it's because it's true. Men, minus God, are always monsters. Give me an example of where I'm wrong.

  • The higher an individual's IQ the more likely they are to be atheist.
  • The more formal education an individual has the more likely they are to be atheist.
  • The more rational an individual's personality (think Myers Briggs, Intuitive Thinker NT), the more likely they are to be atheist.
  • The more secular and atheistic a state, nation or region, the more likely it is to be functional with a higher level of integrity.

  I've known many brilliant people who believed, deeply, in God. Douglas MacArthur, the brilliant tactician and general, believed deeply in God and was, despite his faults, one of the most disciplined, articulate men of the age. He never got a scratch in battle, even though men around him were dropping like flies. He led a company of men behind enemy lines in World War I and was the only survivor. He was attacked by three bandits who ambushed him and his driver and killed at least two of the three with only a hole through his hat. Coincidence? Perhaps, but the same thing happened with General Washington. Both men were brilliant men of faith who were convinced they had a divine destiny. On the other hand, I'm not impressed with the idiots like Hitchens and others who think themselves brilliant and above others. They're stuck up, arrogant and not nearly as smart as they think they are.

  And BTW, I know many brilliant people who voted for Mr. Obama. I, being of medium intelligence, on the other hand, knew what kind of a president he'd be before he was even elected. So much for brilliance and common sense, especially when the latter isn't so common!

  At least you boil it down to what typiclaly annoys theists about atheists - what mature, responsibile consenting adults choose to do with their genitalia. Why do you continue to repeat tired, erroneous garbage? Requiring a belief in a deity in order to do the right thing is weak and un-evolved. Atheists typically have figured out how to do the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing, and our list of malfeasant behaviors - other than the aforementioned genitalia - would almost certainly match a similar list by a rational caring theist.

  I don't know why atheists are so caught up with "genitalia," because they're the ones who generally bring it up first. What about abortion? Few atheists I've met seem to think it's no more important than taking an aspirin for a headache. Besides, since you brought it up, I've never known a truly great man or woman who was sexually promiscuous. Of course I tend to look up to great men who were more contained.

  At any rate, this thread is done. I'm out of here. Continue on if you wish.
• 

  DJS

  Of course there are intelligent, rational and educated theists. The data shows a strong correlation between IQ, education and personality type and theism/atheism, and it was framed as such. Your comments about genitalia are so far from what we have all eperienced on this site that I can't even respond. Abortion is legal in many countries; find something which isn't.

  Men minus god are always monsters?? Really, Cold Steel? We have provided volumes of empirical data which shows EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. You have read them I am certain. You just want to repeat mantras and hide behind old scrolls and long dead men. As Cofty says, welcome to the 21st Century. Mantras and rosary beads. Read and repeat those scriptures until you croak; it won't change the facts.
• 

  cofty

  At any rate, this thread is done. I'm out of here.

  Two simple questions and Coldsteel runs away ............................

  Come back and deal with it coward.

  1. You claim that morality is defined by god. How do you justify your moral choices? How do you show that it isn't just making it up as you go along and calling it god's will?

  2. How can you defend ethics by divine fiat when it leads to you justifying infanticide?