How could you justify that God killed all firstborn children in Egypt?

by Mr Fool 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000

    I just keep wondering why (mostly atheists) keep thinking that believers need to justify anything that God does. Counting myself as a believer in God, and in the scriptures, I never even ask myself these questions.

    Oh we know... this is why you believe in a fairy tale; because you don't ask yourself any questions.

    Pharaoh had the free agency and the obligation to free the Israelites. God could have forced him to, but He didn’t.

    Yes, but instead of making up your own version of the story, why not address what the bible really says? The bible says that Jehoober hardened the heart of the pharaoh. He CAUSED the pharaoh not to let them go, only to punish him after. Yes, that's pretty pathetic, but now you're going to sit there and embelish the story your way, so it sounds better. That's just as pathetic.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    You know deep down that things don't come from nothing. We came from God...

    Anyone else see a problem with this? If something cannot come from nothing, then who made god? Theists answer: no one. He's always existed. Ah! So something CAN come from nothing!

    If something can come from nothing then it is possible for our Universe to have come from nothing. No god is necessary.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    There is one serious problem with this, the bible encourages to learn from things past (Romans 15:4) to imitate God (Ephesians 5:1). …to do this, one must [evaluate] His actions and discern how to apply the idea and attitude behind them.

    Well, I think you’re reading into the text something that isn’t there, for nowhere are we told to evaluate Him or His actions in the way He deals with others. The scripture you cite states: “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” The scriptures point to Christ and the Atonement, and Paul is telling the saints to learn this through the scriptures and become One, even as the Father and Jesus are one. He continues: “Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.”

    From what is said, we see that Paul saw God as having the attributes of patience, consolation, unity and glory. What is glory? It is the brilliance in which God dwells, and which no man can approach and live without first being changed to endure it.

    Even if we are not anymore encouraged to take up a weapon and kill, we should certainly hate what God hates. In this example, God must have hated the innocent children of the Egyptians, otherwise why would he have killed them? So we also must hate children of opposers?

    That is a non-sequitur. Nowhere does it state that God “hated” the firstborn in Egypt. Also, it wasn’t just children who died. All the firstborn of Egypt died, both animals and humans, young and old. But they didn’t cease to exist; they lived on in the spirit whereas the previous day they had lived in the flesh. But in Egypt, parents of all ages mourned for their children, including the Pharaoh.

    What is the moral lesson for us in this then?

    The moral lesson is as stated in my previous post. The Pharaoh represented the people of Egypt. God warned him and forewarned him. When Joseph of old ruled Egypt, the Israelites came there for food. As they continued on in the land, their numbers grew, and like the Spartans and the Helots, they enslaved the Israelites — and this God allowed because they had become an idolatrous people. Still, there were prophecies that foretold of a deliverer. Another relevant question is, do you condone slavery? Do you believe that the Egyptians had the right to keep the Israelites in bondage? The Pharaoh could have prevented all the evils that befell Egypt, but he didn’t. It wasn’t God that hardened Pharaoh’s heart; it was Pharaoh, himself, and the Adversary. And most likely, the people of Egypt who profited from the slave labor. Even in a dictatorship, where the tyrant proclaims himself to be a god, he must ultimately seek to do that which is popular in the eyes of the people. When Moses and his people left Egypt, their god (Pharaoh) had just been bested by the Hebrew God. And in their absence, the people most likely began to rethink how they viewed Pharaoh. In fact, the mood might have been dangerous enough to compel him to recover the slaves they had lost. Perhaps their God, being successful in freeing the people, went off somewhere else and would not trouble them again. Trapped between his armies and the Red Sea, the Israelites would have no choice except to surrender. And even when the sea parted for Moses, perhaps he thought that his power as chief god of Egypt would be enough to keep the waters parted while his army pursued them. So again, whatever happened, it was upon Pharaoh’s head, not God’s. That’s the lesson.

    And the argument, that God can fix everything, like their spirits are with him, or as JW would say, the resurrection, would mean, that he can act however he pleases, and again no moral lesson for us in there. Reminds me of the slogan of the crusaders: kill everyone, God will know his own anyway. Quite dangerous actually.

    As you read the account, God’s actions were not arbitrary. At every step He warned the Egyptians of the consequences of their actions. You do this, and this will happen. You do that, and that will happen. The Crusaders, as you stated, killed everyone. And they weren’t authorized by God to do that. Had He wished to, He could have left Egypt a smoldering pile of rubble. But He didn’t. Think of it as an extraction, only God was much more fair with the Egyptians than He needed to be.

    .

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Murdering those innocent children in Egypt is nothing to what he did during Noah's flood, there he murdered all living human beings innocent or not, [except] for one family.

    Murder?? And what do you know of murder? Murder isn’t something God does. Murder is a sin, and God is incapable of committing it. According to the Hebrew term, murder is the shedding of innocent blood in violation of the law of God. It’s not “killing,” as many Bibles mistranslate it in the Ten Commandments.

    There was no malice in God’s heart. He took the firstborn of Egypt to a far better place, and the only ones to suffer were their loved ones who were left behind. We all come into this world to die, and God decides when we have stayed long enough. In short, living on Earth, getting sick, working and striving in an inhospitable environment isn’t exactly something to look forward to as I see it. By accusing God of murder, you assume and presume that remaining in mortality is better than death. And you seek to judge God without knowing where those He “murdered” went. In short, you judge Him in complete ignorance! In most near death experiences, people who die (unless they’re very wicked people) don’t want to come back and many are angry when they’re told they have to.

    A much more reasonable approach, as believers see it, is: we don’t know what happened to the firstborn of Egypt, but God is just and merciful, and His ways are just. So we must have faith that what He does is ultimately for our own good, though we can’t see it now.

    According to Peter, when Jesus died in the flesh, his spirit went and preached to those who are dead — specifically, those who perished in the flood. Why would he preach to them if he planned to annihilate them? The creeds of men say, “He descended into Hell.” But he told the repentant malefactor, “Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

    And Peter wrote, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18-20) In the very next chapter, he writes, “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    So, because of the Lord’s sense of justice and mercy He provided those who have never had the opportunity of hearing the gospel with the chance of having it preached in the spirit world. Thus, even the spirits of the firstborn of Egypt and those who perished in the flood will have the gospel preached to them there. But, again, in the days of the flood, Noah warned the people repeatedly of what would happen to them if they did not turn from evil and abide the words of God’s prophets.

    .

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    A god that would do that is unworthy of our consideration.

    The good news is that it is extremely unlikely this ever happened. It's just a myth.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    There was no malice in God’s heart. He took the firstborn of Egypt to a far better place, and the only ones to suffer

    were their loved ones who were left behind.

    Aww what a nice sentiment. seems were playing with words from killing someone to murdering someone.

    So instead going after the real culprits he goes after innocent children.

    He's such loving compassionate and just god isn't he ?

    .

    Makes one wonder does it not when he apparently soon is gong to kill most of the people living,

    innocent or not accept those that are subservient and loyal to a commercialized false prophet and liars known

    as the Watchtower Corporation.

    It warms the heart doesn't it ?

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    @ CS....

    It's astounding how you cannot judge god's negative actions as despicable because you are 'unworthy'. Who are you to judge god afterall, right? Yet, in all other "positive" (in your view) aspects of god you have a veritable cornuccopia of opinions and apparently know the mind of god inside and out.

    Typical theist fantasy used to avoid facing the hard questions which expose your god as a dick.

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    You know deep down that things don't come from nothing. We came from God...

    Anyone else see a problem with this? If something cannot come from nothing, then who made god? Theists answer: no one. He's always existed. Ah! So something CAN come from nothing!

    If something can come from nothing then it is possible for our Universe to have come from nothing. No god is necessary.

    Shirley. I have always seen both sides.

    Even when I was a child back in the 50's.

    That is why I am intellectually torn on the subject.

    In our universe nothing comes from nothing.

    God is outside our universe.

    He is outside the box.

    So whether God had a begining or not outside the box is inconsequential.

    God exist outside time. Time only exist in our universe with man.

    paragraph

    I do see the problem you have with my statement

    You know deep down that things don't come from nothing. We came from God...

    and that is the other side of the coin, or issue.

    My bottom line is I see both sides of the argument.

    Which puts me on the fence and causes me to piss evryone off.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    I have to wait while this tornado of religious bull shit passes by.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    God is outside our universe.

    Really and what proof do you have ?

    Inherently God(s) offered answers to human ignorance of the world of which those people live in. FACT

    One can always imagine things up in their minds, providing proof to those assertions is something quite different.

    .

    Human discovery and understanding of the world in which we live has dissolved those once expressive human imaginations.

    The imaginations of the ancient Hebrews and their god to use an example.

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