This is my own experience so I'll share it in that it might help others. This may not work for others but it seems to be working for me.
A little background...I'm happily married and 3 years ago I was an elder and my wife was a pioneer, we have 3 kids. 3 years ago after a year of being "mentally out" after much research I confessed to this and then I faded.
We are still happy and my wife accepted it.
Over the last 3 years we have had little discussions on it as it can cause tension but in the little conversations we have had I have drip fed little bits of info. That, it seems, came to fruition just recently.
I'm a logically person...I see things a lot in black and white which can be good and bad. 1 + 1 = 2 and that's it thus this logically approach helped me deconstruct in my brain that the GB are not being directed by God and once I clocked that then the whole belief system they propose came tumbling down.
The key for me was to prove that the GB can be in no way appointed to represent God and that is easy what with jwfacts.com, Cedars Blog and especially Don Cameron's excellent book Captives to a Concept.
But to help my wife realize this is not so easy, you can't force logical points down someones throat and make them see that the GB cannot be in God's hands.
So here is the logic I used. My wife is not overly smart intellectually but not dumb either, she is not overly logical but is not overly emotional and just this week she grasped this point and this is the point I want to share that may help others.
When the GB release a directive/prophecy/explanation/counsel either one of two things must be true. That God is the author of it or he allows the GB to suggest it and if it needs correcting Jehovah will do so.
If the first point is true, that Jehovah is the author of all the points the GB release and that the GB are simply mouthpieces then why has their been a lot of things that need revising or have been wrong? God is a god of truth not of falsehood and nowhere in the bible does God teach a wrong teaching and then correct it later when he is the author.
If this point is considered true then I want nothing to do with that God. We understand God may progressively reveal things but never ever would He get things wrong and then correct it.
If the second point is true and God allows the GB to suggest things and then God later corrects it if it is wrong then why did it take God 12 years to correct the disfellowshipping of Organ Transplants (banned in 1969...allowed in 1981) when that 12 years of wrong teaching cost lives? Ditto for blood fractions which only were allowed in the early 2000's. If this point is true and this is the way the GB works, that they suggest what Jehovah means and if they need correcting He will then how can the GB ever ask us to be 100% loyal to them and do what the 15th of November 2013 Watchtower asks us to do and I quote: "All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not."
The GB cannot ask that if they are getting things wrong and Jehovah needs to correct them. If this point is considered true then in reality we are following men and the bible warns to not put your trust in princes or the son of man (Psalms 146:3).
So either God is the author and is teaching us wrong things and then corrects it or the men teach wrong things and Jehovah corrects it. Either way...I cannot trust my life with either of those options.
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As I say my still-in wife has started to doubt, she mentioned the above point is grating on her mind to the point she is questioning it. Whilst very exciting for me I thought that I would share that this simple two-fold scenario points out that in no way can anyone follow or trust what the GB say.
I'm open to comments and suggestions.
My Experience In Getting A Loved One Out
by notsurewheretogo 17 Replies latest jw experiences
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notsurewheretogo
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pronomono
Good logic, notsurewheretogo. This sounds like my wife to a tee in her way of thinking. Maybe I can drop similar reasoning on her soon.
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DesirousOfChange
this logically approach helped me deconstruct in my brain that the GB are not being directed by God and once I clocked that then the whole belief system they propose came tumbling down.
That's what took me out as well.
When I finally came to realize that it was all BS -- all manmade BS -- NO Holy Spirit. NO God Direction. NO special connection. Then everything else came tumbling down because once you accept that one thing is wrong, everything else comes into question too.
Doc
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torrent
Once I got the GB out of the picture, it was easy to separate myself from the JW's and refute their baseless concepts. Ray Franz' book, Crisis of Consceince, did that for me. Fortunately, my wife was already there. Still have lots of family in the Org. It seems when we get on the subject, I only have time to make a couple comments before the "cult mechanism" kicks in and they don't want to discuss it any more. I definitely agree that disproving the concept that the GB is inspired by God is the best way to help those that are still in.
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KateWild
You seem to be doing a good job. Slow and steady. Well done. Kate xx
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notsurewheretogo
Thanks folks...
I may add a few other things that are vital...love. Dubs associate being a JW as being the most loveliest, perfect people in the world. Thus when I left I made it my goal to show that was not the case. I love my wife and kids and have made a real effort to show this in all aspects of life in the last 3 years.
This has resulted in that our happiness has grown even though I am no longer a witness.
By being patient, by being loving, by not arguing when we do discuss things, by comprimising when I can (I take my family to assemblies since it is a lot for one parent to look after 3 kids etc) I feel this has shown my wife that JW = true love aint really so...that and the fact that her cong has really not supported her that much since I faded.
So a lot of love and patience...drip feed good logical points...I'm still far away from getting her out but a swe all know when you go down that road of realising that the GB are just men, you can't come back up that road.
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redvip2000
@OP
This is the great logic, but from my experience the ability to appreciate this logic is directly connected to the ability to process cold hard facts, and to look at things from an analytical standpoint.
You mentioned that for you things are simple 1 +1 = 2. I'm like that as well, but there is an enourmous amount of people in the world and in the organization, who simply are not able to take on that perspective.
I've been in a situation where as i'm making these points to an active JW, step by step, just as you did in your post, their brains come to a stand still and they stop following the train of thought. They look at you with a glaze in their eyes as if you just explained atomic fusion to them. Maybe i'm about to say something harsh, but i truly think many JWs are too dumb to recognize simple logic, and so they will never leave.
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notsurewheretogo
redvip2000...you are right and i fully agree with you, many dubs cannot process the logical steps I outlined...yet my wife, who is not logically thinking, was introduced a year or so ago to these points and like you say dismissed them.
But as recent new light or crazy events like tight pants tonys talk occur she remembers the point...and at some point it makes the impression and gets through the permafrost...
Thus what I find in my experience is whilst they may be dismissed...we are planting seeds that may come to fruition when the GB changes things...
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kairos
I'll try this.
Thanks!
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Island Man
That's great. Another great method that might work is the planned planting of seeds with the intention that they will be watered at the kingdom Hall later. What you do is you look ahead to what topics will be discussed at their meetings in upcoming weeks. You single out a false, extreme or otherwise objectionable point that you notice in the upcoming material. Then, in conversation with the JW, without mentioning the material, you make logical points that undermine the point in the material or that will expose it as extreme or wrong. The seed is planted. When the JW has the meeting and the pertinent material is being discussed, it will remind hopefully remind him of the points you made exposing the reasoning in the material as wrong. The seed is watered. Do this enough times and soon the JW will begin to see the flaws in the religion and start questioning and doing independent research that will hopefully wake him up.
Here's an example of how this can be done:
At last week's Watchtower study, the following point was made:
"For example, the July 2009 Awake! suggests that if a classmate asks: "Why don't you believe in evolution?" you could simply reply: "Why should I believe in evolution? Scientists don't even agree on it, and they're supposed to be the experts!" - The Watchtower, September 15, 2014 page 16, par 18.
This is clearly misleading and fallacious reasoning. Scientists are in agreement on the fundamentals of evolution. They differ only on gray areas related to the evolution of some individual species, for which there's not much data available yet. That they differ on minor side issues, is not sound reason to disbelieve the fundamentals of the theory of evolution, for which there is much evidence and wide concensus. So the above quoted material is an example of Watchtower using false reasoning and training children to use false reasoning. So imagine you have read this material in advance of the meeting and you have opportunity to speak to a JW. You could strike up a conversation something like this:
"You know, Sis. Dub-fire, this guy at work was telling me that he doesn't believe the bible. So I ask him why. He says to me:
'Why should I believe the bible? Not even religious people can agree on what it means, and they're supposed to be the experts!'
So I say to him:
'But bible-believers do agree on the fundamental points made in the bible, things like: God created all things, there's only one true God, Jesus is God's son, Jesus died so that our sins can be forgiven, Jesus was resurrected, etc. The things they disagree on are mostly things that aren't made explicitly clear in scripture. Look, there are many things that scientists don't agree on in every detail but that doesn't mean its not true. For example, scientists may not all agree on the true, fundamental nature of light - whether its ultimately a wave or a particle - but that is no reason to disbelieve the existence of light, is it?'
What would you have said to someone telling you they don't believe the bible because religious people don't agree on it and they're supposed to be the experts?"
So you get the JW thinking about how this guy at work is using false reasoning. You even get the JW to think of how he/she can refute such false reasoning - you get them mentally invested, to take ownership of the logic that refutes such false reasoning! Thus the seed is firmly planted in the JW's heart. Now imagine what happens a week later at the Watchtower study when he reads identical false reasoning in Watchtower material! It would seem eerily familiar somehow and he will be able to spot that the reasoning is false! The meeting would have essentially germinated and watered the seed you planted!
Just a word of caution though: one should avoid doing the conversation with the JW, too soon before the material is covered, as the JW may have already studied it in advance and may catch on that you're trying to discredit the publication on the sly. It's best to have the conversation no less than one week before the material is covered. Even if the JW forgets the conversation he had with you, his mind would have been trained and prepped to see the material as being questionable.
I call this method Preemptive Sensitization to Identify Cult Crap (PSICC (pronounced "sick") for short)