Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent 23 Replies latest social current

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    On another thread Band on the Run requested that I answer certain questions she put to me concerning Deng Xiaoping.

    I requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so I start it myself.

    I see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about China, and I have no issues about answering them. Like all humans Deng Xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.

    In telling Deng's story, I have no wish to distort history, I see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail. So if anyone wants to query anything I say, please do so. (paraphrased from Howard Zinn's, A People's History of the United States.)

  • TheOldHippie
    TheOldHippie

    Deng did ONE thing - he destroyed everything that Mao and the Communist Party had fought to accomplish for decades, he restored capitalism and paved the way for the military-fascist regime that is now in control. A scumbag.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    Here are BOTR's questions:

    I have no great interest in Chinese history or culture. The little bio you relate of Deng Xiao Ping is revealing. Based on limited knowledge of China from American broadcast news and regular reading of the New York Times, there are questions I would ask you.

    1. What did he do to help the communist movement? For example, was he a participant in the Long March? Did he subscribe to the Little Red Book?

    2. Did he take any action when the Great Famine was planned and implemented?

    3. Did he support democracy in Hong Kong and China, in general?

    4. If he were alive during the TianMen Square massacre, what did he do to stop it?

    5. Is this a university education?

    A believer in human rights and democracy. Also, a capitalist tool. I would raise the good points concerning this man but you already did it for me.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    TheOldHippie: Deng did ONE thing - he destroyed everything that Mao and the Communist Party had fought to accomplish for decades, he restored capitalism and paved the way for the military-fascist regime that is now in control. A scumbag.

    Let's attempt to find out the truth of your statement.

    Edited to add a link to the thread in which BOTR asked the questions:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/current/287135/1/China-from-the-Inside3b-The-Grasslands-of-Ruoergai

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I sincerely do not know the man's background. You are not Howard Zinn. Guess who heard Howard Zinn speak several times during the sixties? Sometimes in small settings. Write what you want but fundamental questions still must be raised about China and democracy. Howard Zinn is one acadmic. These are questions I would pose concerning any Chinese leader of his generation.

    To glowingly report about China without ever acknowledging its failings is foolishness, unworthy of a full time student.

    Do you believe that only state sponsored propaganda should be allowed in China? A full time student should have ideas and beliefs of one's own and not rely exclusively on Howard Zinn b/c Howard Zinn never relied on American propaganda. Howard Zinn as an example to me is a big joke. Ha! Ha! Aside from asking the rare question, I do admire your posts. It is nice to take a beak from things JW and ignorant political discussions.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    I already posted the following brief bio on Deng:

    Sichuan Province in the soutwest of China is closer to India than it is to Beijing. It borders Burma and Bangladash and shares borderzones with Xizang (Tibet).

    The architect of modern China, Deng Xiaoping, came from a middle class Sichuan family, who sent him to France, sponsored by a group called the Diligent Work-Frugal Study Movement, a work and study program, which sponsored some 4000 young Chinese by 1927. Young Deng was only 15. Why did he do this. Deng says, in"To learn knowledge and truth from the West in order to save China." Deng was aware that China was suffering greatly, and that the Chinese people must have a modern education to save their country.

    Deng and 210 other students disembarked in Marseille in December. 1920. Briefly studied and then got a job in an iron and steel plant in Paris, here he was exposed to worker discontent and exposed to Marxism. In 1921 he joined the Chinese Communist Youth League in Europe and in 1924 joined the Chinese Communist Party and became one of the leading members of the General Branch of the Youth League in Europe. In 1926 Deng traveled to the Soviet Union and studied at Moscow Sun Yat-sen University, where one of his classmates was Chiang Ching-kuo, the son of Chiang Kai Shek.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    BOTR: Guess who heard Howard Zinn speak several times during the sixties? Sometimes in small settings.

    Well, at least we have this in common. We both admire Howard Zinn, and his critical approach to the American state.

    BOTR: Write what you want but fundamental questions still must be raised about China and democracy.

    I'd like to deal with that question too, but I'd prefer to do it in another thread. Why? Because in treating the topic of China and democracy, we must must make ask some fundamental questions about American democracy, critical questions, that other people are also asking.

    IF you are holding American democracy up as a model for the world, then I can only say that I do not understand the joke.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    I can see that this may be a long discussion.

    BOTR: Do you believe that only state sponsored propaganda should be allowed in China?

    No! And, if you believe that. then your admission that," Based on limited knowledge of China from American broadcast news and regular reading of the New York Times," is hopelessly out of date.

    And, when I finish this discussion, I'm quite willing to have another discussion on that issue.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    May I also point out that sorting out what may be the truth about any person or event in history is difficult. We read someone's historical work say, Ammianus, and then spend hours and hours attempting to work out what his pet prejudices may have been. So when I read Zinn's criticisms of Geo. Washington, do I take note or not?

    So before I run out of time, let's start the first question, about Deng..

    1. What did he do to help the communist movement? For example, was he a participant in the Long March? Did he subscribe to the Little Red Book?

    In my first post, I'm going to state my reliance on Harrison Salisbury (The New Emperors, Mao and Deng, A Dual Biography), and then we can attempt to sort out his prejudices.

    I will write without attempting to reference everything, but if you want sources, stop me and ask:

    Deng went back to China from Sun Yat-Sen University in Moscow in 1927.

    Was he a committed communist?

    There are doubts. Professor Gao Mobo of Adelaide University, in Australia, has expressed those doubts ( The Battle for China’s Past: Mao and the Cultural Revolution , London: Pluto, 2008. ) Certainly, Mao had doubts as indicated in his calling Deng, a 'capitalist roader.' Gao thinks of him as:

    "Deng Xiaoping and many like him [in the Chinese Communist Party] were not really Marxists, but basically revolutionary nationalists who wanted to see China standing on equal terms with the great global powers. They were primarily nationalists and they participated in the Communist revolution because that was the only viable route they could find to Chinese nationalism."

    The choice in post Sun Yatsen's China, was essentially the GMD (KMT) now run by Jiang Jiesie (Chiang Kai Shek) or a Warlord or the Ccommunist party. I believe that many people of the era, made the same choice, even though often for different reasons. The USA's concepts had been discarded, even by Sun Yat-sen, educated in Hawaii, but turnign away from the USA as a result of the nasty, vicious war that the US army fought against Philippino Nationalists. Before his death, Sun had sought the help of the Soviet Union.

    (if you cant understand why, you could do worse than consider Pankaj Mishra's, From the Ruins of Empire, The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia, (Allen Lane, 2012).

    Deng's military experience started, Salisbury writes, in 1929, when the CPC sent him out of Shanghai, as the GMD police were hot on his trail. He was ordered to try to form a peasant army to attack Guangdong. That never happened. The opposition was to strong. Recalled to Shanghai for on a conference on his failure, he was sent back to re-group and eventually ordered to join up with Mao and Zhu De in Hunan, recalled again to Shanghai, then back to the Red Army in Ruijin, where he became party secretary for the area.

    It was a long way from there to Beijing, 1949. In those years Mao is reputed to have told Krushchev, "See that little man over there, (pointing to Deng), never underestimate him. During the (anti-Japanese war) he formed and trained two peasant armies."

    That's enough for today.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Being a full time student is understandable. But the Chinese? Always liked their food. Manhattan has the best. Many get three stars in the New York Times.

    I was passing time for a dental appointment. In Chinatown of all places. Reading a magazine about ginkgo balboa. Rocky's cousin? Don't know. Neither here nor there. Green curry.

    A small book fell on my lap. It was Quotations from the Chairman. Little red book. One would have no clue that it is the Chinese. It was formatted so professionally. My heart started beating more quick! Ha!

    - Breakfast on the Run

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