Interesting Religious Conversation with my Daughter...

by garyneal 38 Replies latest social family

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  cofty

  Anyone who wants to promote ignorance and provincial behaviors is on the same continuum as terrorists - JWDaughter

  So Ayaan Hirsi Ali who speaks up for the rights of millions of Muslim women is a terrorist is she?

  She knows the religion of Islam and it's holy books intimately. Just as we know the real Watchtower and will tell it like it is, she relates the oppression that is common to the vast majority of Muslim women and girls. You should join her in loudly condemning the prophet and the book that inspired it.

  Please read her books and then tell us why she is wrong.
• 

  breakfast of champions

  The Quran(which Muslims believe is from God) teaches about hijab. It is open to interpretation in how one implements it.

  Yeah, this is something that bothers me about all of the books god writes.

  You'd think he could write something a little less ambiguous, not so open to interpretation.

  Hell, attorneys do it all of the time!
• 

  JWdaughter

  Hirsi has a story to tell and quite a bit of it has been shown to be fiction. She is polarizing and calls for the abolition of religious rights of all Muslims. She got what she wanted though and is now a US citizen. Having been in Africa and Asia, I understand the things people will do to escape the poverty and difficulty of life there-especially after having tasted the west. HOWEVER, I don't get to speak for all ex-JWs, all American women, all people born on the west coast or all formerly fat people any more than Hirsi can speak for all Muslim women or about all Muslim men or Islam itself, for that example. Her experience is her own just as everyone has their own experience with family and community and faith. I think she has mixed her issues and blames Islam for all of the ones (that she might actually have).

  Does Danny Haszard speak for all ex-JWs, Cofty? Do you think that his experience is every JWs experience? Do you have extreme IBS? Do all ex JWs kill themselves or lead the life of degenerates? That is what all JWs think about ex-JWs. I read about people with heinous JW families, physically and sexually abusive parents, families who shun completely. I read about evil elders and wicked elderettes. . . but is that every JWs experience? Is it something that their Bible tells them is acceptable or desirable? Does every Christian get tarred with the brush of the crusaders or nazi's? How about the fact that the most dangerous place in the world for a woman to be is in Christian Congo? Is that because Christians are inherently evil or that black people are or black men are? Would you hesitate to lay all the social ills of sub Saharan Africa at the foot of Christianity? Cause it is mostly Christian. Rwanda-mostly Christian. The most westernized countries there are filled with criminal violence-it is risky to live/visit there.

  I don't think Hirsi is qualified to speak about Islam. She can speak of her family, her neighborhood and her own experience, but for you to dump it on all Muslims or Islam is as stupid as thinking that the Jackson Five's experience as children is reflective of all JWs experiences or that all black male JWs live like Prince or that all unbaptised JW publishers can pose nude in magazines and not have any repercussions publicly in the congregation for it.
• 

  garyneal

  Wow, I thought this thread was dead but now I see what it has become.

  Blondie: I do not know but I think she does believe that the Jews worship the God of the old testament but does not accept Christ and therefore has lost the convenant. Isn't this what the Watchtower teaches? In other words, it is whatever the Watchtower says.

  Heaven: Interesting. Some Christians I encountered believe that the Jews will be saved and others believe they are doomed. Of course, many will be quick to point out that "Jesus was a Jew."

  Phizzy: One of my favorite fairy tales is The Emporer's New Clothes due to so many similarities I see between that story and religion. As for my wife, I think she is simply afraid to question her beliefs now when only a few months ago she used to question them a lot. I guess she is afraid of ending up like me.

  MissFit: Yeah, I can see she is torn between wanting to raise them to be religious and wanting to not force it on them. There was a time when I was concerned about what I was becoming that I was afraid to push the issue of religion on my wife for fear of her losing faith in God. Now that I am more or less a deist I can appreciate the good things that is said in the Bible but I cannot ignore the bad parts either and I do question it openly now which I think scares her.

  mgmelkat: That's basically where I stand.

  katewild: Fair enough. I can see how for many people religion can be seen as a way to help keep people out of trouble. My wife credits her faith for centering her and I will admit that my faith in Christianity did the same for me. Never the less, critical thinking also protected me from the likes of the Watchtower Society and helped me free myself from my IFB roots.

  ruderedhead: Yeah, I should've not brought it up to my wife as I can see the anger and fear in her.

  JWDaughter: Thanks for the info. I was hoping a muslim would shed some light on that part of our conversation as I have very little knowledge of the religion.

  In regards to the back and forth between JWDaughter and Cofty, I wonder if a lot of the variance between what peaceful Muslims say in regards to their faith correlate in many ways to what more liberal Christians say concerning their faith? Perhaps the more militant Muslims are (hopefully) in the minority much like militant Christians. I can say this though, if Christians are to be truly honest with themselves then the more militant Christians are simply following the Bible much more closely than more moderate Christians are. Can the same also be said for militant Muslims in regards to the Koran?

  MindBlown: Thanks for the kind words.
• 

  Niveau

  I responded to a factual error.

  FWIW, this was quite apparent to me as soon as I read your first comment... not that I'm in complete agreement with your most recent comment, but it was the first one in which you weren't merely correcting a misrepresentation.
• 

  Ruby456

  you are good father garyneal and and my own understanding of Islam is that you are correct in what you say here if you are trying to teach your daughter equality between the sexes.

  On our way out the store, we passed by this muslim couple and my child, being 8 and naturally inquisitive began asking, "Why is that lady wearing a mask and only her eyes can be seen?" To which I replied, "Well, remember what we talked about concerning rules and pleasing God? People of the Islam or Muslim religion believe that women should remain covered from head to toe so as to show respect to their husbands or fathers and in so doing, please God." "Mom does not do that," she said. "I know, same God different rules," I replied.

  jwdaughter you have to admit that Islam is hierarchical in this respect and don't you agree that even the most liberal muslims understand this about Islam? edit I have a lot of respect for Islam btw and it isn't something for me to denigrate islam over but to simply make an observation on as it is relevant to our background as JWs
• 

  cofty

  Hirsi has a story to tell and quite a bit of it has been shown to be fiction - JWDaughter

  Please support this accusation with a specific example.

  Have you personally read her books? I have. She is calm, intelligent and reasonable.

  Her story is nothing different from the experience of hundreds of millions of muslim women in countries where Islam is the majority religion.

  She fled to Holland to avoid an arranged marriage to a man she didn't like. Millions of young teenage Muslim women put up with being married off to fat middle aged men who have Allah's permission to beat them. I have asked you about this command in the quran three times.

  Hirsi Ali also has first hand knowledge of western muslims. She knows the difference between moderate believers and extremists.

  The oppression of millions of muslim women is a disgrace. It is sanctioned by your holy book.

  ---

  Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. - Quran 4:34
• 

  Ruby456

  Hirsi is awfully Islamophobic - but because of her experiences in repressive islamic regimes, I guess some of her phobia is understandable. But still if she really is a calm reasonable person it does not come across in her monolithic interpretation of Islam. Unless of course she is fulfilling the agenda of other islamophic groups as well...

  Cofty, when she applies her phobia to all islam she is writing fiction. Many muslims are atheists, others believe that Quranic verses like the one you mention, Quran 4:34, were written for a different time and place, same goes for the hududs/punishments (cutting off arms and hands) - these are considered obsolete. Many muslims follow sufi traditions and they interpret the Quran from that pov. However, when a repressive regime takes charge of a country, then sometimes to legitimate themselves and to silence opposition they trundle out the hududs/punishments/public floggings and stonings.
• 

  Fernando

  @garyneal

  That sounded like a well-balanced conversation with your children.

  I wonder what your wife's thoughts would be on these terms:

  "Abrahamic religions" (435,000 hits on Google)

  "Abrahamic faiths" (240,000 hits on Google)

  Yup, like JWs, they all claim to believe in and worship the God of Abraham.

  Yet the majority, just like the JWs, know little or nothing about the God of Abraham's message to every one of us (the gospel/bissar/injeel/injil).
• 

  Daniel1555

  You did great. You strengthened your childrens thinking skills.

  I'll keep that post as a good example for when my son is older.