7 Reasons Why “Babylon the Great” was Jerusalem

by Tiresias 74 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Tiresias

  Hello Pterist,

  Hello,

  The author you cite states, "by “recapitulation,” I mean “the repetition of the same basic pattern in a variety of specific formulations” The word “plot” might be clearer than Collins word “pattern.”

  James Stuart Russell essentially agrees, "the several visions [of the Revelation] may be described as only varied representations of the same facts or events; re-arrangements and new combinations of the same constituent elements. This is obviously the case with two of the great divisions, viz. the vision of the seven trumpets and that of the seven vials. These are almost counterparts of each other; and though the resemblance between the other visions is not so marked, yet it will be found that they are all different aspects of the same great event.

  "the visions are not telescopic, looking at the distant; but kaleidoscopic,---every turn of the instrument producing a new combination of images, exquisitely beautiful and gorgeous, while the elements which compose the picture remain substantially the same.

  "As Pharoah’s dream was one, though seen under two different forms, so the visions of the Apocalypse are one, though presented in seven different aspects. The reason of the repetition is probably in both cases the same. ‘For that the dream was doubled to Pharoah twice, it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass'’(Gen. xli. 32). In like manner the events foreshadowed in the Apocalypse are declared by their sevenfold repetition to be sure and near."

  Because J.S. Russell approaches the Revelation as a Jewish document and accepts the explicit statements about the nearness of Jerusalem's destruction, I find his treatment more satisfying.

  Bye for now!

  T
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  Tiresias

  Hello Crazyguy,

  I'll respond to your statement that the Revelation 'was most likely written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.'

  James Stuart Russell offers the following reasons for dating the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem [I have modified some of his comments to make his language more contemporary]:

  1. That the Apocalypse was written before the destruction of Jerusalem will follow as a matter of course if it can be shown that that event forms in great measure the subject of its predictions. This, we believe, can be done so as to satisfy any reasonable mind. We appeal to Chapter 1:7: ‘Behold he is coming with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him.’ ‘The tribes of the land’ can only mean the people of Israel, as is proved by the original prophecy in Zech. xii. 10-14, and still more by the language of our Savior in Matt. 24: 30. There cannot be the shadow of a doubt that the ‘coming’ referred to is the Parousia, the precursor of judgment, terrible to those ‘who pierced him,’ and always declared by our Lord to lie within the limits of the existing generation.

  2. After the fullest consideration of the remarkable expression [the Lord’s day], in Rev. 1: 10, we are satisfied that it cannot refer to the first day of the week, but that those interpreters are right who understand it to refer to the period called elsewhere ‘the day of the Lord.’ There is no difference whatever between 'the Lord's Day' and the Day of the Lord.

  3. In Rev. 3: 10 we are informed that a season of severe trial was then imminent, viz. a bitter persecution of those who bore the Christian name, extending over the whole world [or the Roman Empire]. Now the first general persecution of Christians was that which took place under Nero, A.D. 64. We infer that this was the persecution then impending, and therefore that the Apocalypse was written prior to that date.

  4. That the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem appears from the fact that the city and temple are spoken of as still in existence. (See chap. 11: 1, 2, 8.) It is scarcely probable that if Jerusalem had been a heap of ruins the apostle would have received a command to measure the temple; should represent the Holy City as about to be trodden down by the Gentiles; or that he should see the witnesses lie unburied in its streets.

  David Chilton agrees with statement 4. It is John's "intimate acquaintance with the minute details of Temple worship" which suggest the Revelation was written before the Temple services actually cease.

  T
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  givemejustalittlemoretime

  Thewritten testimony plainly testifies 1st centruy Jeruslaem was Babylon the Great and the great harlot. Messiah himself prophesied against this city that had turned away from God . Culminating in the Olivet discourse where Messiah prohisied its destruction in the 1st century along with the temple it was destroyed Just as Jesus said it would be in Matthew 24
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  designs

  Everything written about Jesus in Matthew shows he was not the Jewish Messiah.
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  givemejustalittlemoretime

  What makes you think he was not
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  designs

  Do you know Jewish beliefs about their Messiah.
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  EdenOne

  I agree with the OP.

  Babylon the Great is Jerusalem ... The beast is Rome.

  All is in the past already.

  Eden
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  designs

  Then why this 2000 year gap.
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  givemejustalittlemoretime

  There is no gap.Messiah rule sin his KIngdom with his elect and has done since the 1st centruy.All we have to do is enter in.It is spiritual and no part of this world. The Mystery of the ages not known and made known to the gnetiles in the 1st century which is "Christ in us" the hope of Glory( colossians 1:27). There is no more death you will be transformed in the blink of an eye at your death, no law, no sin forgiven past present and future. We are fellow citizens of the Kingdom, joint heirs. Every generation has this blessing and the revealing of Chrsit within is being manifest in all. The living word within testifies Christ in you once we recognise the written word is only a testimony about Christ but the letter does not give life. The living word within you is what gives life and if we ask he will reveal himself to whosoever asks. Many are testifying of him within them. Check out my youtube channel seekchristwithin.
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  Tiresias

  Hello EdenOne,

  I wondered whether your research took you in the same direction as my own. Having perused your [excellent!] website, I'm not at all surprised that you reached the same conclusion about Jerusalem.

  I find it both enriching and exciting to think outside the box [coffin] of orthodoxy and traditional hermeneutics. I sense that you do too. I'm certain that you have had a number of eureka! moments following a slog through scripture.

  Perhaps I can ask whether James Stuart Russell or David Chilton contributed to your insight? Excellent writers, both. Of the two, I prefer Russell. I find his text more intelligible than Chilton's. Chilton seems convinced that scripture explains scripture. In fact there are so many scriptures that my brain feels microwaved after reading even one page. I believe his premise is true to a point, but his optic neglects to factor in the Israelite culture. Nevertheless, both texts complement one another.

  Givemejustalittlemoretime and Designs: Thank you both! Because I would like to do your posts justice, I will respond as time permits. I prefer to read and reflect on the posts rather than do hair-trigger responses.

  T