The Great Crowd Catch 22 (page 5)

designs

Perry- you are a sad excuse for an adult.

Quarterback

I never did accept that teaching, along with other errors that are printed in the WT.

My view of salvation consists on what Jesus judges what is in your heart on that day of judgement.

Q- Here are a few questions for you. Chrisitianity has dozens of interpretations on both Soteriology (Salvation) and Eschatology (End Times/Judegement). Why is your particular view the correct one, or why do you think your view is the better interpretation out of dozens of views. Do you condemn other Christians who disagree with you or only JWs. Why do you believe in a divine judgement and reward.

Rattigan350

Perry, your writing style is like an evangelical.

Born Again.. Come on, it is Jesus speaking in riddles. His words don't matter, his actions do.

Quarterback

You're right, Designs, Christianity does have many diverse opinions on Salvation, and Echatology. I don't condem any people who may view things differently from me. I get along with them.

Why do I beleive in a divine judgement and reward? Well I don't beleive in a reward, and a divine judgement in the many ways that Christianity has interpreted it.

I beleive in Divine Intervention, but, I don't have the details worked out yet.

designs

Q- and that's fine to have a evolving view of your beliefs. When I was active as a JW, 1963-1999, my personal beliefs changed and the Wt. changed. We eventually just had to part ways.

Crying because your dad doesn't read the Bible they way you do, as Perry states, is such a waste and shows the negative effects that religious dogma has on people.

Crazyguy

What's interesting and probably just another of many bible contradictions is Jesus seems to indicate one had to believe then partake in his blood, this I guess probably automatically puts one in the new covenant. Also one has to be born again. Yet there are other scriptures that stated all one needs is belief that Jesus is the Messiah. In 1 john chapter 5 seems to confirm this that if you Believe you are promised everlasting life and any other opinion is to call God a liar.

Then of course the JW's say thats all useless since faith without works is dead quoting from James yet another contradiction because the writer of Ephesians chapter 2 says the exact opposite.

Perry

We are saved by grace through faith. When you identify the "grace" and the "faith" there is no contridiction. Every bible church I have ever been to deals with these issues on a fairly regular basis so that people don't deceive themselves.

Generally belief precedes actions. The one tells about the nature of the other. For instance if a person really believed that they were declared righteous by the blood covenant, they would want to partake of the emblems as Jesus commanded. They would believe him. If they do not partake, then it brings into question whether or not they really believe. Most of the time, belief precedes obedience just as unbelief precedes disobedience.

The part about being born again is strictly an action of God. It follows everything that precedes it: grace>belief>action>born again - in that order.

James is simply a "straight shooter" - Faith without works is dead. Of course, how could it be any other way? In others words, if works do not accompany belief & grace , especially over time, it calls into question the beginning of it all: belief.

Included in that belief, is denial of the old self. A person may believe Jesus intellectually, but they may still want to hang on to their old personhood. They have grown used to it even though it has caused them much pain. It is predictable, and our flesh finds some small comfort in predictableness. If a person is doing this, then they really haven't believed Jesus when he said that it would cost you all you had to follow him. In another place, he said a person would have to be willing to say good bye to his mother and father. In still another place he said that a peson would have to "lose" his life in order to find it. All of these "cost" related items are encapsulated in the term: believing upon Jesus.

I think trust is a better word to capture the biblical concept. Think of jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, and then flapping your arms to try and slow yourself down. Similarly, our works were never designed to get the job done. However, our belief and trust is what unleashes God in our life by means of the blood of Christ, our personal sin payment.

The part that is of most concern to us with a JW background, is that the works that we read about among believers in the NT are not from us. They are God generated by the new spirit acquired at the new birth. Eph 2: 10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works

Band on the Run

Perry,

You have so many details worked out. Most people see contradictions. The gospels are not uniform. Perry, your trouble is that, unlike the rest of the Bible, most of us here have read the text. The text reveals no uniform belief. They argued among themselves. Revelation negates Paul. John is different from Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Sad.

designs

Guess you and your dad have kissed each other off over religion then.

Terry's post on Adam and Eve, you should read it.

The Great Crowd Catch 22

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