The Great Crowd Catch 22 (page 2)

Crazyguy

And dont forget Hebrew chapter 7 or 9 can't remember which were it states that without the covenant there is no forgiveness of sins.

Perry

I know this. My heart has been so heavy, I finally wept to let some of the pain out. The Enemy is ruthless.

objectivetruth

Ask your father about his viewpoint on Seth,Enoch,Abraham,Isaac,Elijah,Moses and John the Baptist.

These men were all Righteous, yet they still must prove their righteousness over a 1,000 year period. (According to WT Doctrine)

you you can then ask him about Luke 13:28 " In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out."

Perry

objective truth,

Those examples were his main argument to explain why he didn't need the New Covenant to be declared righteous.... because those guys were declared righteous without the New Covenant.

I explained that from the time of Moses on, there was an agreement in place for the foregiveness of sins through the blood of animals, which pictured Jesus in the future. Prior to that, believing God ALONE was enough to declare someone righteous ("Abraham believed God and it was credited unto him as righteousness")

Now that Jesus has come, why he wants to ignore his 3 time command to be born again and to instead believe anonymous watchtower writers is just without foundation of any kind, other than someone told him to do it (the wt.).

objectivetruth

What does it mean to believe?

the "first use" of a word in Scripture is often very significant as it establishes the primary or most significant meaning, and this general principle is true in the Spirit's inspired use of 'aman in Genesis 15:6 where "Abram believed in Jehovah" = Hebrew verb 'aman = Greek verb

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed (Aman in the Hiphil stem) in Jehovah; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Comment: The use of aman in this passage indicates that Abram did not just give mental assent to God's promise ( Ge 15:5 ), but that he relied on that promise and made a personal commitment. In other words Abram's faith was not only cognitive (the mental act of acquiring knowledge) but also personal for he believed God’s word of promise (Cp the NT "commentary" on this OT use of "aman" -- Hebrews 11:8 = His faith was the root of the fruit of obedience, which is a sign that one's faith is genuine saving faith and not just mental assent! the depth of his faith which led to the ultimate act of obedience in Heb 11:17 , 18 , 19 ) and he committed his soul to the God Who had revealed Himself. Considering that "amen" (truly, it is certain) is derived from "aman", it is as if Abram heard God's promise in Ge 15:5 and said "Amen!" Jesus repeatedly used the Hebrew word "amen" ("Truly") to express the trustworthiness and abiding certainty of His sayings.

The Searcher

Hi Perry, I truly feel your anguish for your father. It's so difficult to reach some of our loved ones with Bible truths, when they are so blinded and accepting of the JW.ORG Golden Calf teachings.

If it's not too stressful, ask your dad one day if he sincerely believes that there are TWO ways in which a person can have their sins TOTALLY wiped out - thereby allowing a reconciliation with their heavenly Father.

He will almost certainly say 'No', so ask him why the Org says there ARE two routes to forgiveness of sins, based on their spurious interpretation of Romans 6:7.

w82 5/15 pp. 8-9 - "The Bible explains that at death a person is set free or released from any sins he committed. It says: "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

w74 10/1 p. 607 Questions From Readers - "This means that when a person has died, his sinful record no longer stands against him."

Insight Vol. 2 page 760 - "The basis for reconciliation. It is only by and through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus that full reconciliation to God is possible"

Three supplementary points to consider;

1. Jesus death was unnecessaryif our own death achieves the same result.
2. Jesus promised only one of the criminals he would be in Paradise. If literal death really does wipe out sins, the other man automatically qualifies as well.

3. Romans 6:7 out of context, gives all dead, unrepentant sinners automatic forgiveness, just because they have stopped breathing. This nullifies John 3:16, John 11:25, John 17:3, and 2 Thess. 1:8, 9.

designs

So your parents at the bottom of all your angst. The NT message has caused you so much emotional harm.

designs

This great tragedy has been playing itself out, repeating itself in so many forms, for 50+ centuries. One person believes their god is real and all others are false and imaginary. One person thinks others are doomed to punishment by their god and the others feel the same toward that person.

All this pain, all of this family disintegration, all the millions who have been harmed and even killed because of the God Delusion, such a great tragedy...

AndDontCallMeShirley

Perry: I know this. My heart has been so heavy, I finally wept to let some of the pain out. The Enemy is ruthless.

Such is the nature of religion. Foisting guilt and anguish on people over nothing more than fictions. Truly sad.

The Enemy is ruthless.

"Gullibility kills". -- Carl Sagan

There is no "enemy", Perry, except ignorance and devotion to the superstitions of ancient goatherders.

You are just as much a deluded slave as your father, you just don't realize it.

Perry

Thank you Searcher. I really appreciate the research you did, I really do. I will study out the scriptures you cite on point 3 a little later.

The Great Crowd Catch 22

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