Is Faith Immoral? (page 8)

Qcmbr

If you choose stupidity is that moral?

Is it easier to act morally with better information?

Is it therefore moral to choose the lower quality information set upon which to base value judgments?

MadGiant

"Mad Giant, we may be in another semantic dance. I equate reason and logic as the same thing. I am using the same region of my brain and conducting the same activities to come to a conclusion."

Trust me, I am not trying to wizzle my way out. I just want to learn. Moral reasoning, aims at reflecting and expanding on our moral, to bring them up to date with the complexity of the environment.

Logic is a method of verifying with high degree of certainty whether an argument constitutes a proof. With morality though, their is no such method, and people all the time make moral decisions that can be called into question by other moral arguments and are not logical.

But yes, morality has something to do with logic, but it is not logic “all the way down,” it is anchored by certain contingent facts about humanity and so forth.

And the ‘reasoning’ we use to think about morality doesn’t necessary resemble logical.

No problem, I'll leave it at that. I have no more arguments.

Respectfully,

Ismael

http://www.evolutionaryethics.com/reason.htm
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Logi/LogiKara.htm

Qcmbr

Final one - bedtime for me:

Can it ever be moral to use as a standard a system of thought that uses a circular dependency as a primary virtue and is therefore intrinsically resistent to analysis?

Faith = Belief in faith (amongst other things) + Ignorance + Lucky Truth / Untruth

Band on the Run

Believers, JWs among them (tho I would not consider JWs believers given the absence of Christ, are not any more stupid or any other bad attribute. I believed the Witness doctrine as a child. Witnesses are so isolated. I recall when I first entered a church. The terror was real. If you have learned worldly views, be grateful. Lack of sophistication is not stupid. I was just thinking of how silly these threads are. It has been decades since I've met a real life person who takes the Bible literally. Decades. There is the urban/rural divide, too.

These continuing threads make me wonder if the WT is interesting at all. There is not much content here that would attract people. Plenty of content that would alienate newcomers. The title is so poorly worded. It reveals much by itself. I don't see much correlation between faith and morality. Morality itself is an awkward word for 2014. I believe that smiling and being nice while stating that I don;t believe for a few key reasons is more likely to convert someone. Education would make a big difference. My JW relatives were bright. I respected them as individuals.

Sometimes I wonder what RL people here witness.

sunny23

I could also argue that the virtue of faith is one of the evolutionary holdovers, revered by the majority of the populace and may indeed be necessary. Unified in religious faith, a community may choose to work together (bee behaviour) to expel a danger. --jgnat

Salem Witch trials = religious faith holders working together to expel a danger. How many innocent people died in this case of "bee bahviour." I'm sure one could come up with many more massive casualty examples than this though. "bee behavior" can be positive or negative and religion can be a backbone factor in intiating bee bahavior as you agreed. When this behavior becomes immoral though (burning on a cross young women who don't agree with the church and must be witches), this doesn't mean that religion is immoral and thus faith is immoral. Actions and intentions can be judged as immoral. How can ones beliefs in things unseen (faith) be immoral?

I think that faith in groups produces religion, religion then produces bee bahvior, bee behavior can produce intentions that lead to actions, the later can be judged as immoral.

Qcmbr

What is immoral is choosing a demonstrably poorer information set upon which to make choices. Faith allows any behaviour and argues that it is moral because of unverifiable reasons. Faith allows you to burn people , practice genocide, assume control over people's relationships, extort financial support, subvert legal systems, break up families , go to war / not go to war regardless of moral consideration. Faith is the ultimate excuse for behaviour.

No moral behaviour I exhibited as a Mormon was based upon sound logic and a good deal of immoral behaviour was unwittingly condoned. Nothing moral was exclusive to my faith.

Moral behaviour I do now is the result of deliberation and weighing up alternatives. I am responsible for my behaviour in a way that faith never let me be.

jgnat

Qcmbr, if choosing a demonstrably poorer data set is immoral, then romance, lust, and hope are also immoral. I say for that reason choosing stupid is not immoral.

Here are some behaviours I put on the immoral list; taking advantage of the vulnerable, failed reciprocity, dishonesty, and murder. One neither needs faith to do these things, nor are these acts the works of the faithless. Faith is neither moral or immoral.

I agree, sunny, that communal faith (bee behaviour) can lead to atrocities such as the Salem witch trials. It was as if the entire community fell in to a frenzy, and the participants could barely explain their behaviour. Faith gone wrong.

A pet peeve of mine are those people who are self-declared as "full of faith" who insist that their beliefs are reasonable.

Qcmbr

Apples and oranges jgnat.

jgnat

Exactly! Faith is neither moral or immoral because morality is on a completely other plane! Logic and reason are neither moral or immoral because arguments for the greater good can lead to perfectly reasonable atrocities!

Qcmbr

Selecting faith based information over evidence based information is immoral if you use that information to make choices. Selecting the bible over a medical text book to perform medical procedures is immoral. The moment you are aware that a better information set exists then continuing to privilege faith is immoral. You can try all you like to move the goalposts but faith is in inferior approach to knowledge and selecting it when given the option is in and of itself immoral regardless of outcomes caused by that choice.

Is Faith Immoral?

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