Jehovah told to Moses: "....kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man"

by opusdei1972 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    Does God (if there is one) have to be Mr Benevolent to qualify to be God?

    Why?

    The bible claims god is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing. Evil exists, which god should have hated because he's good, stopped with his power, and known about it with his omniscience. --->Therefore the god of the bible does not exist.

    Yes, there could be a god or creator that is not all-good. That means the bible is not true, but you're right, there could be. Then what?

    I believe the best philosophy of all is to lead a good life. Be a good person and enjoy the "gift" of life to its fullest. If a god/goddess/gods someday make themselves known to us, and they are worthy of our worship (god being good is a requirement here), then they will be pleased with what we've done with their gift. If not, it's still a win for me and those around me.

  • problemaddict
    problemaddict

    Does God (if there is one) have to be Mr Benevolent to qualify to be God?

    Great question. Its great you are at where you are, allowing yourself to ask questions and consider different viewpoints. Just aquick side bar. I was at dinner with some (new) friends who are also former JW's. One of the people there was a devout BA christian. We had a respecful conversation, where we saw the world differently, and expressed our own thoughts, without thinking others had to share them or we couldn't be friends. It was awesome! It was brand new for me! How silly, that communication regarding something ambiguus or that isn't universally agreed upon at a dinner table used to cause so much panic and frustration. I was dragged before the elders because I referred in the open once to the WT being an "editorial on scripture". Seriously!

    More to your thought, I agree that to read history and consier it barbaric isn't always fair. If you lived then, you would think of things a certain way, and it would be normal. You would have owned slaves in the 1700's, would have sacrificed humans in Mayan civilization, and would have castrated children in Greek culture. I'm glad we have come so far, and no doubt people will look at some of our actions as interesting as time moves on.

    BUT......that doesn't apply here. The bible says it is an account preserved by the power of God of his peoples exploits. In this particular exploit, instructions are being given by God (supposedly). Now why would God condecend to the brutality of the culture he was dealing with, if he extends beyond time and space?

    My thought on your question is that a creator God doesn't have to be anything to exist. But the bible paints him as the personification of love. Both cannot be true I think.

  • millie210
    millie210

    I appreciate your point Bebel8.

    I am just walking out the door on a lifetime religious belief system.

    I refuse to assume that just because it was wrong - there is no room to reason on various points.

    I am trying to sort it all out.

    I understand that some have already done that and have no patience for restating the process at which they arrived at where they are now.

    I really mean that. Im not being sarcastic. I really can understand why a person wouldnt want to!

    But for me, it does help to read everyones views and the links and quotes they share.

    When someone responds to an irritating post (such as mine probably was on some level) with kindness and thought. it softens me so I can listen and learn.

  • millie210
    millie210

    Hi problemaddict,

    I liked hearing about your conversation at dinner. Having been "trained" as a JW, I dont really have experience with how to have conversations where everyone can be on equal footing.

    As a JW you always think you are right and are searching your mind for how to "prove" it. LOL

    I liked the point you raised about a God who transcends time and space and why would he go along with (in fact order it done) such brutality.

    I dont have an answer but I really appreciate that question - I think it is a very good point.

    Im sure this subject will come up again and Im sure it has been a topic before I got here. I probably should read old threads before just chiming in but I didnt.

    I was trying to think earlier of an illustration of what exactly I meant but the best I could come up with was that of a county dog impound organization (somewhat lame I know)

    They are committed to spaying and lowering the stray animal problem. They do a fine work. They also gas a lot of cats and dogs just because of the sheer numbers.

    Who gets gassed? Who gets saved? Who gets to make the "rules" for the criteria used?

    Is it horrible? All those helpless animals caught and trapped and taken to a building and gassed?

    Is the impound organization still doing good?

    What is the alternative if they merely stopped? Animals running wild on the streets? Over population? Disease? More suffering in the big picture?

    I have talked to people that work there. They have a high burn out rate.

    So at the end of the day, are they killers or heros?

    I dont agree with the scripture under discussion. I am not trying to defend it and I am not trying to defend God.

    I am just trying to think bigger than my own knee jerk reaction.

    I am deternined not to be stupid twice.

    (the first time thinking I had the only "truth" all these years)

    Thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate it!

  • opusdei1972
    opusdei1972

    millie210 Some years ago I was a witness, who believed that the Bible was 98 % inerrant. After leaving the Society I still believed that the entire Bible was the word of God. But I have to admit that I did not want to analyze the Bible through critical eyes. So, when I found a contradiction, I used to read websites of christian apologists, in which the contradictions are harmonized by sophistic arguments. That was the way I was deceiving myself. Now I see that the Old Testament can't be the word of God, because a loving God could not be partial. I realize that the Old Testament was written by Jews who had a nationalistic agenda. So, those stories where YHWH is shown as the God of Israel, the Lord of Hosts who endorses genocide against Israel's enemies, were based on ancient wars, but reconfigured by the Jewish scribes so as to raise the pride of an inferior nation compared with Babylon, Egypt, Persia, etc. Accordingly, YHWH of the Hosts is a Jewish invention.

    If God is the God of the Old Testament, why doesn't he use his supernatural power to save inocent people who die in many natural disasters? ...The fact is that that God who protected the Israelites in the story of the Exodus does not exist. The true God (as I see) never chose a nation and favored a religious system.

  • steve2
    steve2

    millie, I appreciate your very reasoned response. Depending on what you've been through - and the speed of going through it - can make a difference to the ability to process more and more stuff. Kind of like, Where will it all lead??

    Everyone has different factors to take into account - for me there has always been an uncertain line between our human need for consolation and our human need to use our thinking faculties so we won't be as vulnerable to being "deceived" by all manner of claims and counterclaims, religious or otherwise.

    Along the way, I have realized that I'd rather know something was wrong than choose to accept it because of my need to be comforted and consoled. God knows I will never let myself be duped the way I was with JWs - the religion of my maternal and paternal grandparents and my parents. I am aware of the heat in my determination and over time are better able to make a stand that is consonant with where I am. Best.

  • Dismissing servant
    Dismissing servant

    If I remember it right, I think it was some 30 000 virgins, maybe 32000. Old Moses and his buddies had a lot of hymen/vagina inspection to do!

  • millie210
    millie210

    there has always been an uncertain line between our human need for consolation and our human need to use our thinking faculties so we won't be as vulnerable to being "deceived" by all manner of claims and counterclaims, religious or otherwise.

    Along the way, I have realized that I'd rather know something was wrong than choose to accept it because of my need to be comforted and consoled.

    That is exactly how I feel Steve.

    Too me, just saying bad God (or bad anyone else who did something atrocious in the past) is doing the comforting thing.

    "God did this....it is shockingly bad to me- therefore I wont believe in him"

    seems to be self comforting and an effort to control what happens.

    When I gave up the reins (of being controlled and trying to control) i replaced them with a vow to myself to try to understand.

    The universe, God, life, a ressurection of the dead, immortality/or not....its all up for rethinking for me now.

    What I cannot do is slip myself in to some kind of mental recliner where I lay back and think "now THIS is comfortable!"

    No. If I am making a break, then a break it shall be. Not going to try to bring the facts, the past OR the future, down to my level.

    I am a human. My thinking is always going to be flawed. I can tell that by looking at past humans. It is part of our humanity.

    People who thought the earth was flat went by what they could see. They did what "felt right". They were sincere but they were sincerely wrong, turns out.

    Science is better but our understanding of it is STILL sometimes flawed.

    I dont think that God (if he exists at all) has to fit in to my human parameters of what is "kind" anymore than the sun, moon and stars do.

    I dont think that love necessarily defined as "kindness". I also think doing the right thing in a given moment can trump love.

    Another poor illustration:

    A young man breaks in to a home. Hes been abused and battered his whole life. As a result he lives on drugs. In spite of this he is a gentle giant. He never carries a gun, only breaks in to houses where he thinks no one is home. He is only hoping to find something he can take to turn in to cash.

    Upstairs is a young mother. She has just come out of an abusive relationship but has turned it around for herself by getting a gun and training to use it.

    When she hears footsteps on the stairs she opens the nursery door, fires and kills the man.

    He's dead. She killed to protect her young. Was she mean?

    Was it unfair that he had to die? After all, he never hurt a soul in his life. He was one of lifes victims.

    There are a long liist of questions and possible motivations that could be included but I wont go on and on with it.

    The "easy" answer is to say "Well God should know better - hes God." (Be more lofty, elevated etc..)

    Agreed. But he didnt. Either this is a made up story or it happened.

    If it did happen, why? What other motivations or reasons or circumstances could be in play here?

    That is all I am trying to do.

    Like I said above, Im not Gods lawyer. Im just not going to jump from where I was to -"I was mistreated as a JW therefore everything God does is pathetic."

    Im also not going to jump to -"He didnt play out according to my human brains ideas of a God therefore he doesnt exist at all."

    That would be slipping in to that mental and emotional sweet spot. Easy to do. And very popular nowadays.

    Being agnostic (which I would say I am bordering on) or atheistic is trending if you look at polls.

    Another reason to step carefully. I dont plan to run with the herd from here on. If a bunch of people think an idea is great- it probably isnt.

    Floundering' away again in Margaritaville (minus the margarita at the moment - its 9 a.m.)
    Searching for my lost shaker of beliefs and values
    Some people claim that there's a religion to blame
    But I know, it's my own damn fault

  • sowhatnow
    sowhatnow

    they really dont go into bible topics anymore. its all about the gb , weird invented stuff,

    and why people should donate , and lists of do and donts

    the God of the hebrew bible was a different God than the one in the new testiment. ancient peoples had many Gods.

    That God was a god of war, and if it was a God, who said in the ten commandments do not kill, then he broke his own commandment

  • millie210
    millie210

    Opusde1972, Hi and thanks for sharing your view with me. I really appreciate it.

    Im going to back off a bit here, as I feel I am hijacking your very interesting thread.

    I havent read at any apologists sites since I felt the big shift away from the JWs internally - I read some before that when I was trying to defend them.

    Mostly I read Greg Stafford. So I guess ONE site is the sum of what I read.

    I am glad you feel that you have found what works for you. I havent yet.

    But if people share, and people read their thoughts, that is the way things get clearer. Right? Im hoping!

    Thanks agian for doint that for me.

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