Colossians 1:15-16 and the word "other"

by yogosans14 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    yogosans14: "Nevertheless, there is a Greek word for "first created," and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians."

    The Greek word for "first-created" was not in popular use until after the first century, and when it did become popular, people used both "firstborn" and "first-created" interchangeably to refer to the same thing. Besides, existing biblical words such a"birth" were often connected to the idea of creation. Thus, the term first-created was not required biblically to express the concept that Jesus was created.

    yogosans14: "That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh ( John 1:1,14 ) and is also the first born son of Mary."

    This statement reflects personal interpretation, not an actual biblical statement. The Word was the one who became flesh. Not God!

    yogosans14: "Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family ( Luke 2:7 ), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20 , 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born." (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence."

    If "firstborn" meant preeminence based of Psal 89.20, would this indicate David was only preeminent, and never born? If one takes a look at a Concordance for the original words for "firstborn," do we find the meaning of preeminence throughout? We don't! What is the customary meaning of firstborn in the Bible? Jesus was ‘the firstborn of the dead.’ If Jesus was being described as preeminent of the dead, would the description rule out the fact that Christ never died?

    As to the meaning of "panta" in relation to Christ, Paul defined the word in 1 Cor. 15.27 in a way that God was cleary excluded from the description in the text. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh wait, Trinitarians don't like simple biblical statements. They yearn for the mysterious over simplicity. Who can compete with a "mystery"? Or a "philosophy"?

  • abbasgreta
    abbasgreta

    If you are a person who does not believe in the doctrines of Christianity, the bible, God etc that's fine with me - hope you found what you personally were seeking.

    However, it makes me smile when I observe some unbelievers who go to great pains (and not a little time and effort) to discredit Jesus, Paul and the bible etc by QUOTING Jesus, Paul and the bible! This should be against the rules of the dissent game. Your arguments must be bible-free to keep it fair. If you believe the bible to be a total crock of manure from Genesis to Revelation, you cannot then also cherry-pick verses to use to add fuel to your anti fire because what you find there seems to underscore your 'argument'.

    I believe 'evolution' (perhaps its not called that any more) to be baloney but don't start quoting from various at-odds-with-each-other-theory 'bibles' on the subject to fuel dissenting speech aimed at its adherants. I couldn't care less what's written in them and their authors, because I'm not in the least interested in the subject and therefore don't own or down-load any.

    But if this 'belief' system floats someone else's boat then let them sail it. They studied what they studied and became convinced. Christians have done the same (convincing themselves personally) to build their own faith structure. Why should this bother unbelievers so, who themselves have left the 'God business' behind?

  • designs
    designs

    abba- One reason- Progress in religion came from those willing to be Heretics....

  • Listener
    Listener

    Marking

  • abbasgreta
    abbasgreta

    Designs: Progress in religion by heretics - trying to get my head around that one.

    Every service I attend ends with "Go therefore to people of all nations, teaching them to obey ('observe' is a NWT red herring) all the things I have

    commanded you. Go then in peace, to love and serve the Lord." No additonal progress (not sure what you mean by progress) or extras needed. The sayings

    that lead to eternal life have already been spoken.

  • designs
    designs

    Individuals who saw that slavery was evil had to go against the Bible, or go way out on a limb of liberal interpretation in reading into texts, to turn the corner on slavery practiced by European Christian nations who were using the Bible for support.

    Ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people by Christians who were supported by the Gospels and St. Paul. Reformers had to go against the NT Bible.

    Advancements in the Sciences, particularly astronomy, were made by individuals who had to go against the Bible's Geocentrism.

  • abbasgreta
    abbasgreta

    Designs: Got you. I understood heretics as coming from heresy (opposition to accepted Doctrine) so was confused. 'Progress' could be used similarly to describe the relatively recent change to ordain women and now to become bishops. There is a reference to a woman bishop in the 3rd century, but by the 6th, women were removed from the position as they were eventually deemed 'unclean' to do their priestly duties because of menstruation. Researching the background of the probable bias used against women by the interpretation of certain scriptures, not allowing for context and perhaps additionally mis-using exegesis/ hermeneutics, together with inconsistencies in the greek to prevent them to teach and become ordained kept me busy for a few hours. It was incredibly interesting and worth the effort.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Due to their apparent theological bias, the Watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that Jesus is also a created being. It is clear that Jehovah's Witnesses try to avoid having to admit that Christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is God" (Hebrews 3:4). Instead, the Society teaches that "Christ was the only one created by God," and that then He "created everything else with Jehovah." (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth From this perspective, Christ is not the Creator God but merely the first created angel - "The greatest angel is Jesus Christ, who is also called Michael." (Watchtower, November 1, 1995, page 8)

    Jesus is eternal and the Creator (see Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1, 3, 10; 8:58; 13:19; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:2, 8, 10; 13:8; 1 John 1:1; Revelation 1:17-18; 22:13). In addition to the above clear references, the Scriptures also state that God alone is the Creator (see Genesis 1:1; Psalm 33:6; Isaiah 40:28; 44:24; Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 11:12; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 2:10).

    However, did God actually create only one angel, and then use this angel to create everything "else"? No! God testifies that He Himself created the heavens and the earth, "alone," "by myself." (Isaiah 44:24)

    The Scriptures clearly state: "I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?"

    Therefore, the Bible declares that everything was created by the Son, that the Holy Spirit was present at creation (Genesis 1:2), and that the LORD (Jehovah) was "alone" there. This only makes sense if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the one true God.

    The idea that a lesser God (demigod) participated in creation, separate from "Jehovah," is refuted by Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10; Job 9:2, 8, as well as the fact that the Father did not create alone but with the Son (John 1:1-4, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30). Creation is an exclusively divine ability, and no created being can even serve as a means for creation. God is the unique source of creation, as He does not cooperate with any tools, partners, or materials in the work of creation. God's creative activity is exclusive. No one and nothing can create as God does. The creative capacity of God is an incommunicable attribute for any creature. To be able to create, that is, to bring existence from nonexistence, one must be God.

    If, however, "in Him all things were created," it would necessarily follow that He Himself was also created in Him (through Him), which would be a contradiction. Therefore, the Son is not a created being.

    The Watchtower presents several arguments in defense of the insertion of the word "other" in verses 16-17:

    • In Luke 13:2, some Bible translations render this word as "the rest," "everyone else." - But here, there is additional information that is not found there. It is written that these people were also Galileans. However, it is not written about Jesus that he is also a creature.
    • Luke 21:29 - It is written that the fig tree also belongs to the category of trees. But it is not written about Jesus that he is also a creature.
    • Philippians 2:21: This is a perfect own goal. Paul logically did not list Timothy, whom he praised, among those who seek not Jesus' interest but their own. The Watchtower's "logic" would demand this in this case as well.

    Just because the Watchtower brought some translations where the word "pas" is translated as "everything else" in other places does not automatically justify their method. They need to construct a parallel between the specific Bible passages' message, speech situation, etc., and Colossians 1:16-17. The speech situation was different in those cases because it was stated about the unique entity (opposed to "everybody else", or "all other tings") that they were also Galileans, they were also trees, or it could not be said about Timothy that he was profit-seeking - so the reference is not good. The parallel does not work because the mentioned examples either do not have the factor justifying "everyone else," or it is present but guaranteed by an explicit mention (classification) that is missing from Colossians 1:16-17.

    In Greek, there is indeed such a tendency, but the examples brought up are very different from the one in the Colossians letter. Numerous other places say that Peter was also an apostle, that Paul and his companions were imprisoned, that everyone who went to the temple threw something into the collection box, and so on. However, here it is not at all self-evident that the word "other" should be there. We saw that the "firstborn of all creation" in 1:15 could very well be a dignitary name denoting inheritance, and the immediate continuation lists everything created in him, further distancing the verse from the examples intended for parallelism. The verse emphatically repeats at the end that "everything was created through/by him", and the New World Translation is forced to insert the word "other" here and in the next verse. It is therefore difficult to convince anyone that the meaning of "everything else" is unambiguously present in the text.

    The predicate "created" can only refer to what was actually created, i.e., the powers and principalities that can be identified with angels, and which are elsewhere (Colossians 2:10) said to be headed by Christ.

    The insertion of the word "other" is unjustifiable because it falsifies the Watchtower's concept into the sacred text, which is a source to be quoted later with authority. This is, by the way, the essence of a sectarian interpretation, not the context of the text. That is, they put their conclusions and elaborations into the apostle's mouth. This is what is unacceptable in a Bible translation. Translation is a different genre than biblical explanation, let alone religious debate.

    Some amateur Jehovah's Witness apologetics websites (whose enthusiasm earned them a rebuke from Brooklyn, saying that they are not needed, and they will represent and defend "the truth") try to defend this translation, but on very similar grounds.

    The argument related to Colossians 1:16 brings up several examples where it is clear that the "others" are of the same type as the one being discussed - such hypothetical gods, trees, names, governments, people, Galileans, and so on. These examples linguistically only demonstrate that if the context is already clear, the word "other" can sometimes be omitted from "all things" in Greek. For example, everyone else also gave to the treasury, and so did the poor widow. Those who were crushed by the tower in Siloam were also Galileans, as were those to whom Jesus compared them. Peter was an apostle, and so were the other apostles. But how it would become clear from the context of Colossians 1:16 that Jesus is also a creature is not clear. It is the Watchtower Society that needs to smuggle this in: precisely with such a biased translation, for which there is no basis in the text. I would like to draw particular attention to Colossians 1:17, which states, "he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist", - not "He became before all other things" etc. As, of course, John 1:1 and 1:3 also state: "In the beginning was the Word", and "All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." I am curious when the Watchtower will "rethink" this as a "New Light", of course only "logically": i.e., by inserting an "other" word after "everything" and "nothing" in their translation.

    The other loophole is that "everything" does not necessarily mean everything, and is based on the fact that in the said place, the reader is specifically told what "everything" Paul is talking about.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    “Firstborn of all creation” in Col 1.15 clearly means that Jesus is God’s first creation, just as surely as “firstborn from among the dead” in Col 1.18 means that Jesus was the first one permanently raised from the dead. The idea that the passage is not clear about Jesus being a creature just because it doesn’t add the word “other” is weak. Besides which, the passage is an allusion to Prov 8.22, which in the LXX, the Bible of the early church, clearly stated that Jehovah created wisdom as the beginning of his works, a passage that early Christian writers were unanimous (including Trinitarians) applied to Jesus. Plus there is Rev 3.14, Jesus is described as “the beginning of the creation of God”, and John 6.57, where Jesus says, “I live because of the Father”. It was in later centuries that Jesus’ status as the first creation of God was disputed and overturned at Nicaea in 325 AD.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    slimboyfat:

    Proverbs 8:22 is a well-known mistranslation in the LXX, the correspondent Hebrew verb here (qanah) doesn't mean "create", but "acquire", "buy," "possess", "have" etc. It's well translated by ancient Bible translators like Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion, Jerome. The Christian in the first centuries were aware of the only the original text can be regarded as inspired, a translation is just a translation, an interpretation, which can be even unintentionally wrong. That's why Jerome hasn't translated the Vulgate from the LXX into Latin, but directly from the Hebrew. Not a big surprise the NWT follows a bad translation. Check:

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/proverbs/8-22.htm

    Neither "the firstborn [prōtótokos] of all creation" nor "the beginning [arkhé] of God's creation" PROVE that the Son is the first created being, since grammatically this is not a necessary, but only a POSSIBLE interpretation of this text, which is clearly excluded by other scriptural statements.

    Colossians 1:15: "the firstborn [prōtótokos] of all creation" (literal translation)

    If we want to free the passage from the possessive structure, it could be interpreted as: "the firstborn over all creation." The Watchtower arbitrarily clarifies this ambiguity. The Greek prototokos = firstborn: here it means superiority and eternal preexistence, not the first creation. He is the distinguished heir to everything that has been created. We need to start from the meaning of "universal heir, main heir," who, due to his origin, owns everything that the Father has created.

    According to the Old Testament legal conception, the firstborn, as the future head of the family, has a special position in the family and receives a larger share of the inheritance than the other children. The use of language in the Old Testament is instructive. David is called the firstborn in Psalm 89:27, not because he was literally Jesse's first child (since he was the youngest), but to symbolize the power of Israel's kingdom.David is called "firstborn" in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. The Watchtower understands this with regard to that verse:

    David is called "firstborn" in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. The Watchtower understands this with regard to that verse:

    „David, who was the youngest son of Jesses, was called by Jehovah the "first-born," due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preminent position in God's chosen nation.”

    (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, 584)

    Similarly, Jeremiah 31:9 refers to Ephraim as the firstborn, although Manasseh was chronologically the first (Genesis 41:50-52). God called the nation of Israel "my firstborn son" (Exodus 4:22). So when Jehovah says, "I will make him my firstborn" (Psalm 89:28), he is actually calling a later-born son (David) the firstborn, meaning not a temporal dignity, but a title indicating dignity. Similarly, when God called Israel as a nation his own firstborn (Exodus 4:22), he obviously did not mean it chronologically, because Isaac's firstborn was not Israel, but Esau. Moreover, Israel was Jehovah's firstborn, even though it was not counted among the nations (Numbers 23:9).

    It is therefore undeniable that the apostle here wants to express the primacy of the firstborn over the creatures. But that Christ is not included among the creatures is evident from the following.

    Jewish rabbinical writers called the God (the Father) as Bekorah Shelolam, which means exactly the same as what Paul used here: the firstborn of all creation. By the way, the Father does not need to be called the firstborn over all creation, because He was not born. The Holy Spirit was not born either but proceeded. However, Jesus still came into the world of creation as an heir (Hebrews 1:2), not the Father or the Holy Spirit.

    The prototokos appears in Hebrews 1:6 as a title for Jesus. However, in the context, Jesus is depicted as the Almighty (1:3), the radiance of God's glory (and his image) (1:3), the Creator (1:10), worthy of worship (1:6), and called God by the Father (1:8). These characteristics can only apply to God.

    Revelations 3:14 "the beginning [arkhé] of God's creation"

    The correspondent Greek word here (arkhé) does NOT mean "beginning or beginner in time", but "origin", "source of action", of "first principle". No contemporary Greek-speaking reader would interpret this verse like the JWs do, since arkhé was a well-known term back then.

    The arché from which the English word architect (= architect) is derived. According to scholars of the Greek language, its literal meaning is: origin, causation, source, uncreated principle. Therefore, Jesus is the architect, or the Creator of the Universe, as made clear in Col 1:16-17. He was in the beginning (arkhé) with the Father (Jn 1:2; Heb 1:10). He created every creature, and he was before every creature, so He himself could not be a creature (a created entity). In Rev 1:8 (often rendered as Alpha) and 21:6 (cf. Is 41:4; 44:6; 48:12), the arcké is applied to the Almighty God, so it is not possible that it means a created being, as claimed by groups like JWs influenced by Arianism. A similar terminology (first and last, Alpha and Omega) also refers to Jesus: Rev 1:17-18; 2:8; 3:14, and 22:13.16. Therefore, both the Father and the Son are fully God.

    The "beginning of God's creation" does not mean that he is a creature. For in Him, everything was created, without Him, nothing came into being that has come into being, and He was in the beginning, not in the beginning created. The "arkhé" signifies power, dominion, rule, and principle. We find the meaning of "power" in many places in the New Testament. The beginning (arkhé) is also called powers (e.g., Eph 1:21, Col 2:10), as well as the beginning point in time. Neither usage implies that what is called the beginning is part of what it is the beginning of. On the contrary, we know from elsewhere that everything was created in Him, without Him nothing came into being, etc. Here, it is not a temporal beginning - if you look at the context, it is about Jesus' office and dignity, not his age. According to this, the beginning is of creation, not of the Son.

    Here, it rather says that the Son is the origin, cause, (primordial) source, fountainhead, uncreated principle, or beginning of creation because everything was created through the Son, without Him nothing came into being that has come into being; and everything in heaven and on earth was created in Him, everything was created by Him and for Him. He is before everything, and everything is held together in Him.

    "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

    On the other hand, it helps to understand the verse and the meaning of the word "beginning" (αρχη) if you compare it, for example, with how Col 1:18 speaks of Jesus:

    "He is the beginning…"

    Furthermore:

    "I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay everyone for what they have done. I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (Rev 22:12-13)

    The same word "beginning" (αρχη) is used in the Bible for the Father in Rev 21:6, so αρχη obviously does not mean a creature.

    It is also worth noting that, just like the concept of Logos, arkhé has its own precedent in Greek philosophy.

    Ancient Greek philosophers called the arkhé the primal principle, primal cause, to which they always traced the origin of things, i.e., from which the world is built, i.e., what is the beginning of the world. Thus, the "arkhé" is the principle from which the cosmos originates. The New Testament writers adopted these Greek concepts and filled them with new content: according to Christian teaching, 'the beginning' or 'arkhé' of the created world is the Godhead, which includes the Son as well.

    Nowhere does the Bible call the Son a created being (ktistheis), a creature (ktisma) or the first creature (protoktisma or protoktisis). Indeed, he declares that he created everything, and without him nothing came into being that came into being It follows logically from all of this that it cannot belong to the created, became things, so it cannot be the "first creature" either. In the Bible, there is only one Creator, God himself (Genesis 2:4-7, Acts 14:15), and God created everything himself with his own hands (Neh 9:6, Isa 44:24, 45:12, 48:13 , Psalm 95:5-6). Creation is the work of God alone and directly. Another question is whether God is more than Father: He is also Son, and when God created, then the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit created.

    The fact that Christians considered the Son to be God and uncreated long before the Arian controversy can be well supported by contemporary sources, including the writings of the apostolic fathers.

    The formulation of John 1:1a "In the beginning was the Word..." (as opposed to "became", or "is created", or "came to be", as in John 1:3) was an important reference during the Arian controversy, since Arius asserted that the Son was a perfect creature, at most a kind of demigod subordinated to the Father. Arius insisted ‘there was when he [the Logos] was not.’ The opponents of the Arianism pointed out that according to John 1:1a the Son "in the beginning" already "was", not became, and consequently is not a creature, and did not come into existence in time, but is eternal like the Father.

    In order to condemn Arianism, the First Council of Nicaea formalized the creed, according to which the Son is "begotten from the Father before all ages (æons), Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not created, of the same substance (homoousios) with the Father". At the same time, the synod anathemized those, who say 'There was a time when He was not;' or 'He was not before he was made;' or 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'.

    Can it be considered "late" that this was dogmatized "only" in 325? Well, this just proves that it was simply not an issue before Arius came along. But this reproach is hypocritical on the part of a denomination that did not even exist until the end of the 19th century, and whose basic doctrines were only developed decades later, such as two-class salvation theory only in 1935

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