angels and women (page 2)

caroline77

Bart, Thanks for your reply.

So the answer to you question is that a JW will say that there are no fallen angels on the earth, because the event happen before the Flood and the demon offenders are locked in Tartarus, end of debate.

The ones who supposedly cohabited with women were before the flood, but what about the ones who were involved in the 'war in heaven' in Revelation 12? I was told that they came to earth in 1914. What is to stop them from doing the same thing if they are bad? And why send them here?

kaik

It is crucial to understand the story of the "fallen" angels from Jewish's point of view. Juda's short verse is a reflection what Jewish scholars believed in the antiquity around his time. Midrash explanations are diverse, but in general, Judaism does NO have a notion of fallen angels and conflict in Heaven between forces of God and evil. Even Satan is seen as someone who is employed by G-d and not is adversary. Angels according to Talmud do not have evil inclination in heaven but they may sin:

"The angels are dismayed, they are seized by fear and trembling as they proclaim: Behold the Day of Judgment! For all the hosts of heaven are brought for judgment. They shall not be guiltless in Your eyes."

Nephelim were not giants, but rather individuals in higher social rank who due their noble background abused their power. The word could mean a person of great statue but also having a spiritual greatness. Midrash also wrote that angels came to earth with G-d knowledge:

"I know that would you live on that world, the evil inclination would rule you just as much as it controls man, but you would be even worse.” But the angels persisted, saying: “Let us descend to the world of men, and we will show You how we will sanctify your name.” And G-d said: “Go down and dwell among them."

They did not believe it would happen, but once they got into the earth's realm among people, the behavior of men had corrupted them. Angels who were sent to Sodom were punished to wander the Earth for 138 years, because they should carry G-d judgment upon the city, but "they were haughty and attributed the act to themselves." Additionally, some stories said that angles may have corrupted men sexually and there are some referrences on same-sex unions prior the Flood. Eve supposedly had a intercourse with Satan and Kain was a product of this union. Therefore, Eve is a mother of all living, but this cannot be said about Adam. Midrash also mention that Adam was defiled by Satan and felt a shame for his act which was cause for his hiding.

Whatever is written in OT about angels, is rather incomplete myth that was preserved in the Bible.

jam

A thought..If these were good Angels, they would not commit

this sin, and evil Angels could never be designated as "Sons

of God".. The nutty logic of the bible, who knows.

EndofMysteries

In the bible it shows that those angels are imprisoned. That then makes you wonder where do demons come in?

The book of Enoch makes a disctinction. THe book of Enoch says those angels have been imprisoned, but the nephilim since they were 1/2 human 1/2 spirit, when their fleshly bodies were killed a spirit side remained and they are the ones who are demons who wander the earth that hate humans.

jam

So , are we talking about good Angels, bad Angels and demons????

WTH!!!!!

caroline77

Thanks for the very useful link, Fernando.

A WAR IN HEAVEN

4 The preceding chapter in this book explained that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in the year 1914 . (Daniel 7:13, 14) Soon after he received Kingdom power, Jesus took action. “War broke out in heaven,” says the Bible. “Michael [another name for Jesus] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled.”* Satan and his wicked angels , the demons, lost that war and were cast out of heaven to the earth. God’s faithful spirit sons rejoiced that Satan and his demons were gone. Humans, however, would experience no such joy. Instead, the Bible foretold: “Woe for the earth . . . because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”—Revelation 12:7, 9, 12.

No-one has actually answered my question, which is: What is to stop these wicked angels doing what JW's believe that angels did before the flood, and why send them here?

This is interesting, because you were all experienced JW's and so I expect to get a similar result when I get the opportunity to ask JW's the same question at my door.

Pistoff

"Since cohabitation with women was unnatural for spirit creatures, these angels sinned by yielding to what for them was totally wrong desire. (James 1:13-15) Similarly, the “ungodly men” of whom Jude spoke desired to have immoral relations with persons of the opposite sex.

7 What happened to the disobedient angels served as a warning to Christians of Jude’s day, and serves as a warning to Jehovah’s Witnesses of modern times."

--To me this is a very good example of the hebrew bible's co-opting stories from ancient mythologies; it is really nothing more than an adaptation of myths of gods taking human sexual partners, and the resulting giants as offspring.

We can't think of the Hebrews/Israelites as being monotheistic, even though the bible has been redacted to make it seem so; the Is-ra-el-ites worshiped El and other gods, just like their neighbors.

This story of the 'angels' that sinned is transplanted from ancient myths.

A spirit world of multiple gods, as in Jehovah presiding over a council of gods, or over 'angels', is nothing more than an altered version of a pantheon of gods with a most powerful god at the top, as in henotheism.

--Sexual desire is a function of human hormones; as hormones increase in humans at puberty, sexual desire is a factor; as it decreases in old age, it is no longer a factor.

The verse that attributes sexual desire to angels (lesser spirit creatures, or gods) is one more good example of anthropomorphism.

This is such a great account, such a good example, to me, of showing that the Israelites were much more like the Canaanites (or indeed were a tribe among the Canaanites) than the redacted accounts would have us believe, in that their gods and beliefs were at least henotheistic, and most likely polytheistic like their neighbors.

kaik

Caroline, if you demand really answer who are fallen angels, Satan, Devil, and war in the Heaven, you should turn into Jewish interpretation of the OT because they wrote it. Liberate yourself from thinking that was implemented by JW, WT, and evangelical nonesense that is also deeply rooted from Catholic view of the Bible. Ask yourself what Jews before Jesus and during his time though of Satan; who was Gog; why there is no notion of original sin; what OT say about punishment of sinning angels. What pre-exile scripts say about angles, and how the differ after exile; what prophets wrote in the OT, and why WT interpretation is different from it.

Fallen Angels idea is rather post biblical concept after Jews were exposed to different beliefs of the Greco-Persians world especially Zoroastianism. Angels good, bad, punishing ones, and messangers according to Jewish believes had a possibility to influence mankind good and bad way. Jacob ladder between Heaven and Earth tells you that angels were able to descent/ascent between two realms after the Flood.

Now when you move toward NT you find that according to I. Peter 3:19, fallen angeles were imprisoned. This mean that they were prevented from materialize in the human form on earth. NT is clear that Satan and his minions are free to roam the earth and looking for anyone to devour. However, depending on what "Light" you read, you will find different interpretation.

villagegirl

Who knows what any particular term meant in

the original languages ? The term "name" referred

to a label, a reputation, as in:made a name for himself.

or "your good name" so that proclaiming the,

name of God, may refer to the reputation or character

or even existence of, God. Sons of God, is used to refer to

people, angels , Jesus as a singular son and his disciples.

What does it actually mean? It could mean a creation of

a living being of any kind or of a human or human like

enitity. Soul , what does that mean ?

The Bible referes to both animals and people as souls.

Spirit, refers to some element associated with:

examples: sparrows, who die and their spirit returns to God.

Holy spirit, capiltalized or not, was used to refer to some

outside helper or also to spirit within a person and

the spirits of animals and all living things. The only thing

we can observe is that there is both good and evil.

Angels who fell to earth, or went to earth or were cast down to earth ?

Angels who materialized bodies, and took on human form ?

Are they here among us ? Or their offspring, the Nephilim ?

Are they here but in another dimension ? Or in the flesh ?

Are fallen Angels in prison or once in prison but now released ?

Allowed to do certain things but not have free reign ?

The Holy Spirit is spoken of as dwelling in us, and the demons

are described as possessing or dwelling in people and animals.

Is it madness or is it real ? Remember, even the top scientists

with all their math and observations have determined we only

can perceive 4% of what actually exists. There are forces acting

on us and with us and for us and against us, that we cannot see.

Thats science and Quantum Physics. So being dogmatic is useless.

smiddy

Angels : Spirit creatures , created by the almighty God, the creator ?

Some disobeyed the Almighty God and as spirit creatures can take the form of humans , even giving their reproductive powers to father children to the daughters of men ( humans) ?.

Can you honestly get your head around this .?

Angels are not flesh and blood

Fallen angels are even less so.

Where is the almighty creator in all this mix ?

So how can a fallen spirit angel impregnate a human woman and make her pregnant ?

It would seem that the fallen angels have more power over the so called true God .

What do you think.

smiddy

angels and women

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