Obama Speaks as The Great Whore

by scotoma 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  scotoma

  Apognophos:

  The preterist goal is to treat prophecy like some weird poetry that lets people vent their woes. They do this because they reject the notion that such a thing as "prophecy" is possible. This requires that they back engineer everything to fit the time period in which it was written. It is pure speculation. Worse yet it is incoherent speculation. They encounter questions they can't answer and that never can be answered because all the facts are supposedly already on the table and a lot doesn't fit. They end up with explanations that are quite similar to Watchtower techniques. They resort to strange relationships of collectives and classes.

  Think about what you wrote: "The whore and the beast are largely the same character, Rome. It's just that the woman is the city and the hills are its rulers." Sounds like the old "faithful and discreet slave are the collective body of annointed and the domestics are the individuals." Or jesus didn't show up in 1914 as predicted so he had to have come invisibly." Who writes this stuff? John Levitt (Saturday Night Live's Habitual Liar). Yeah Yeah that's the ticket.

  I am not prepared to take apart the preterist interpretations. Not because it is hard but there are enough ongoing arguments among preterists themselves over the meaning of revelation. And then you have the Protestant interpretations where everything takes a crazy turn so that the apostate catholic church becomes the whore. That's where the Russelites entered the picture and as JW's came up with the idea that all religion except JW make up a world empire of false religion.

  My interpretation is based on parsimony. It is simple and even though some of the events haven't happened yet it isn't hard to see where it is all going.

  Babylon is described as the richest entity on earth. Who could that be?

  She has committed fornication with the kings of the earth. Who could that be?

  She is trying to ride the Wild Beast which is some kind of succession of empires? Who could they be?

  All those who have ships at sea mourn when she is suddenly destroyed by the Wild Beast. What could that mean?

  The ten horns who have never had an empire gain that status by alliance with the Wild Beast. Former soviet states all of whom are separate political entities are being wooed by Russia.

  The Soviet Union appeared slaughtered to death.

  It's death stroke is healed. People wonder admiringly "Who is like the wild beast? Who can do battle with it? " Is Nato going to put Ukraine back together again and pull it into the European Union? That can't be answered for sure. But the reason it can't be answered is that it remains to be seen. The preterists don't have that luxury. If they don't know something - so what - it doesn't matter because it's history not prophecy.

  The Two horned Wild Beast which emerges from the earth in Rev 13:11 that looked docile and lamblike but reverted to its dragon like speech and makes the earth worship the beast that had the deathstroke that healed? Is it mere coincidence that Russia looked like you could lead it around with a shepherds commands. It was so docile under Yeltsin and for the early part of Putin's rule. Not any more. It's back to business as usual.

  Somewhere in that tangled mess of symbolism the preterists try to construct a coherent picture and being unable simply write it off as a bunch of allegorical ecstatic ramblings.

  Yet those symbols parallel the visions of Daniel. Where Revelation is the Wild Beast vs. The Harlot the book of Daniel the King of the North vs. the King of the South.

  I'm not a prophet. But I do have eyes.
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  Frazzled UBM

  Scotoma - you are delusionary - listen to Apognophos - Revelations was all about the Roman Empire and one of it came to pass - the Bible has zero prophetic value. Stop peddling your ridiculous views on here. Fraz
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  Frazzled UBM

  Sorry that should have been 'none of it came to pass'
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  DJS

  This OP should have died a very quick and painless death. Keeping it alive is sad. Posting something like this may get views from lurkers as desired by the OP, but some of those lurkers may work for agencies better known by letters of the alphabet. Sad.
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  Apognophos

  Well, you might be right, DJS, perhaps letting it die would have been best. My hope was that some readers would benefit from a simple "reality check". A lot of former JWs still have Armageddon Anxiety and are worried that maybe JWs were onto something -- "Maybe the Bible *is* talking about the modern day! Maybe I need to listen to this guy's take on things!" So it's nice to present the scholarly view as a counterpoint since it encourages us to move on with our lives and stop looking over our shoulders at the religion we left behind.

  The scholarly view may not be unanimous in terms of how details of Revelation are interpreted, but the fact is that the rantings in Revelation are a product of a bygone era. There's no reason to assume that our current time is more important and special than any other time since the book was written about 1900 years ago. This assumption is called chronocentrism. The characters in Revelation would have obviously been some other players to someone living in the year 500, 1000, or 1500.

  Additionally, the order of the rantings are all mixed up, as even a cursory examination shows. Different writings may have been slapped together. It's difficult to tell what the writer was getting at in many parts. But the parts that correspond to history, such as "Nero" equaling 616 or 666 (depending on whether you use the Greek or Latin form of his name), and the references to Nero redivivus make it clear that this book is an ancient work that has long since ceased being relevant.

  Our time is no more special than any other time. I hope to God that people are not still interpreting this madness to refer to the modern day in the year 2500.
• 

  scotoma

  DJS:

  I post for myself. It is kind of a journal of the evolution of my opinions. If someone post something I extend them the courtesy of acknowledging that and try to further the conversation if the comment hints at the least bit of sincerity.

  I'm certainly not trying to keep it alive. It has already gone over the time horizon where it is unlikely that too many people will visit it.

  Anyhow, I will probably post again as I choose, and at that time anyone who doesn't want to engage me won't.
• 

  scotoma

  Apognophos:

  Scholars are not necessarily correct. Specialists are narrow focused and form opinions that are often indefensible.

  Scholars are not paid to do other peoples thinking for them.

  Each individual needs to weigh evidence. If knowing that there are scholars that believe that there is no such thing as prophecy settles the issue for someone, well they might not want to go beyond that.

  There are plenty of people like me who feel this is still an open ended question.
• 

  wizzstick

  I am an atheist yet intrigued by the events that match up with bible prophecy.

  You're an atheist that believes in Bible prophecy?

  What?

  WHAT???

  What 'ability' was behind this 'prophecy' given you don't believe in God. More importantly, what empirical evidence can you produce that backs this 'ability' up?
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  Apognophos

  scotoma has already explained that he finds it simpler that an alien conspiracy is behind the Bible's prophecies and that they are meant for people living in 2014 than to acknowledge that maybe the early Church should not have included in the canon a book written by someone who hated Rome and may have been on mushrooms.
• 

  scotoma

  Wizzstick,

  Since I don't believe in an all powerful all knowing god I build my "belief" system around evolutionary materialistic principles.

  So I am open to the possibility of other sentient beings on other planets in the multiverse (word describing aspects of the many worlds theory).

  Individual organisms can be intelligent but there needs to be a social matrix for the development of really big ideas.

  Today we benefit from the accumulated knowledge of billions of individuals.

  Social structures rooted in sexual reproduction and long child-rearing are concerned with the survival of society. This springs from concern for those closest to us (relatives) and diffuses outward.

  Advanced societies are interested in the welfare of others. By advanced I mean the realization that we are all related and therefore deserving equal rights. It is likely that this concern for others is intrinsic to the ability to build complex machinery including whatever technology might enable interdimensional travel.

  This cultural evolution cannot be forced. It must emerge over long periods of time. Although it may be tempting to rescue people from war and starvation it would interfere with the natural development of a deep cultural realization of what is needed for species survival.

  So these extradimensional observers would refrain from sharing information that could make matters worse. All species develop because of self interest. At some point that development gets the dominant species to the point where they can destroy themselves with weapons of mass destruction.

  Somehow these cosmic older brothers need to introduce the need to survive by building a brotherhood. Nature gives us two methods of survival. Fight and flight. Of the two flight has the greatest possibility for survival because it buys time for thinking and planning. Fighting as an option is summed up by "who ever lives by the sword will die by the sword". When a country is going through a civil war some men fight but others flee with their families. Flight enables survival. Fight secures a boundary or border which is a setup for future disputes and war. A strong brother hood is an advantage in a flight situation.

  The Bible is full of scenarios of survival by flight. The Bible is a lesson in the futility of fighting for your country. The nation of Israel fought to maintain its land. Eventually, they lost it. Christians were told to flee Jerusalem when the Roman armies were poised for attack. Likewise Christians were told if they persecute you in one city flee to another.

  Eventually conditions will reach the point of a tribulation that will need to be cut short for the survival of all flesh. There will be survivors of that tribulation. They will survive because of flight to a place of protection. At the point where humans are going to destroy themselves these cosmic brothers will appear in the sky and bring an end to the battle.

  The prophesies in Daniel, Revelation and other places in the Bible are meant to keep the flight reflex well tuned. These cosmic older brothers have probably saved many planets from losing their sentient species. They no doubt have big data and can look at the configuration of the continents and predict based on advanced statistical analysis who the players will be in the final show down.

  This is the "elevator ride" description. There is a lot more. I just don't see any need in elaborating. I think the key is to look for a devastating event that is called the "disgusting thing standing where it shouldn't". That's the cue for flight.