Abiogenesis takes another step forward.....

by snare&racket 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Vidiot, we know that evolutionary developments, like the eye evolved in several places, in several species, with no connection to each other, evolution found the same mechaism to solve the same problem. If I remember correctly, the SARS virus, or maybe it was 'swine flu', evolved into existence in 3 different regions. I.e. evolutionary inevitibility is more likely than we think. Because if the enviroment influences a direction, it will likely do it multiple times.

    Our problem has always been difficult, saying it would happen in a deep ocean enviroment isn't good enough in science, we have to prove it. Looks like they are on their way now.

    Exciting stuff.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    snare&racket - "Our problem has always been difficult, saying it would happen in a deep ocean enviroment isn't good enough in science, we have to prove it. Looks like they are on their way now."

    Sure goes a long way towards explaining why creationists the world over seem to be either quietly ceding victory, or completely losing their shit.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    This is interesting, and potentially exciting, though since I can't follow the technicalities I don't want to get my hopes up. It seems like this is the weak point in the findings:

    Ralser's team took early ocean solutions and added substances known to be starting points for modern metabolic pathways [...] There is one big problem, however. "For origins of life, it is important to understand where the source molecules come from," Powner says. No one has yet shown that such substances could form spontaneously in the early oceans.

    So, if I understand right, they used what is thought to be an authentic early ocean solution as a medium, and dumped in various complex compounds and heated the solution, and got metabolism-like results. That's interesting, but it sounds like it's crucial to have a theory as to how these "substances" could have come about. Since I don't know what substances they even mean, I don't know if there are any theories on that subject. Does it have anything to do with the organic stuff that's been found in comets and whatnot?

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    You are correct Apog, but in fairness the science is in its infancy and they have homed in on the major chemical interactions. They will move onto the other issues next for sure. These are harder to prove and assess and importantly repeat.

    For anyone that rules abiogenesis as a role only for a deity, I would be thinking twice. Though yes, there is processes still to understand.

    It is ironic, when we find a gap in our knowledge and fill it, people pop up and announce more gaps, if the motive is scientific precaution, then it is to be taken seriously, if it in ignorance, it is a valuless concern. I don't mean you Apog, it just astounds me that we learn something amazing like this, and then people who have offered nothing say "but what about......"

    Snare x

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Sure. I don't advocate a "God of the gaps", personally. Though I do think there may be a creator that exists outside the universe, there is unlikely to be one inside the universe, therefore we should expect that everything around us can be explained without a need for an intelligent cause, besides the universe itself at the most basic level.

    Since abiogenesis is something that would have taken place well into the life of the universe, between the formation of stars and planets (mostly understood) and the evolution of species (mostly understood), there's no reason to think life itself required a miraculous jumpstart from an outside force, especially if we view life as a self-perpetuating chemical process and not something distinctly different from the rest of matter.

    And if the "gaps" of the understood universe are continually getting smaller, then that tells us that science is doing something right and we can expect the trend of learning more about our origins to continue with an upward climb.

    Speaking of self-perpetuating reactions, I was reminded of the naturally occurring nuclear reactor in Gabon that's been mentioned here a couple times. I'd forgotten about this, but there's a theory that this sort of natural fission was common in the young Earth and the energy released could have powered the development of organic compounds. Highly speculative, it seems to me, but one example of a hypothesis that may explain organic molecules if they can find more facts to support it.

  • Gypsy Sam
    Gypsy Sam

    Marked

  • Perry
    Perry

    The difference between this and the function of a cell is mindboggling.

    Mindboggling complexity - proteins

    Even a single cell is not simple. In Darwin's day researchers looked at cells under the microscope and saw little balloons filled with goo they called protoplasm, so they thought cells were simple forms of life. 150 years later we know that there are many types of cells, and each cell is a little city at work. The smallest known genome (Mycoplasma genitalium) has 482 genes. 18 The minimum possible for an organism to survive is probably 200 to 300 genes. Most bacteria have 1000 to 4000 genes. A popular textbook on the cell 1 is 1600 pages long and weighs 7 pounds. Everything about the cell is stunningly complex. Plants and animals contain a great variety of cells. The human body has about 210 different types of cells.

    Cells are made of proteins, and everything that goes on in a creature involves proteins intchemical reqeracting with each other. Proteins are generally 50 to 2000 amino acids long; a typical one has about 300 amino acids. 1 Ribosomes are molecular machines that build proteins in cells, using messenger RNA as the template. Here is an overview of how a bacterial ribosome "translates" RNA into protein. Every protein in bacteria is made this way.


    From: Schmeing, T. Martin, V. Ramakrishnan. 29 October 2009. What recent ribosome structures have revealed about the mechanism of translation. Nature, Vol. 461, pp. 1234-1242.

    A protein is not just a long ribbon of amino acids strung together from the DNA pattern. It folds itself into a 3D structure.

    Diagram of a folded protein

    Origami

    The temperature and chemical concentrations must be right for it to fold correctly, and many proteins get help from special proteins called "molecular chaperones". Chaperones can keep proteins separated from each other while they are folding, prevent mistakes in folding, and even unfold mistakes to give the protein a second chance to get it right. After helping one protein fold, a chaperone will go help another one fold.


    " A chaperone protein (bottom, yellow) called SecB guides the folding of another protein (transparent)
    in this artist's illustration." --Science News, December 1, 2007, Vol. 172, p. 342

    Making and folding proteins goes on continuously throughout the body. Misfolding can lead to more than proteins that don't work. In humans, bunches of them (aggregates) can lead to diseases such as Alzheimer's, Huntington's, or sickle cell. "Proteins are so precisely built that the change of even a few atoms in one amino acid can sometimes disrupt the structure of the whole molecule so severely that all function is lost." 1 All proteins stick (bind) to other molecules. But each can bind to only a few of the thousands it encounters. "An average protein in a human cell may interact with somewhere between 5 and 15 different partners." 1 Their shapes fit each other like a hand in a glove. "Proteins can form enormously sophisticated chemical devices." "The most impressive tasks are carried out by large protein assemblies formed from many protein molecules." "Each of the central processes in a cell... is catalyzed by a highly coordinated, linked set of 10 or more proteins." 1 The parts of a cell where proteins are made (ribosomes) are themselves made of many different proteins. "The complexity of living organisms is staggering." 1 In the face of this breathtaking complexity, evolutionists have tried to find the basic things necessary for a cell to function. So far they have found 17 general categories 1 :

    • Replication, recombination, and repair
    • Transcription
    • Cell cycle control, mitosis, and meiosis
    • Defense mechanisms
    • Cell wall/membrane biogenesis
    • Signal transduction mechanisms
    • Intracellular trafficking and secretion
    • Translation
    • Post-translational modification, protein turnover, chaperones
    • Energy production and conversion
    • Carbohydrate transport and metabolism
    • Amino acid transport and metabolism
    • Nucleotide transport and metabolism
    • Coenzyme transport and metabolism
    • Lipid transport and metabolism
    • Inorganic ion transport and metabolism
    • Secondary metabolite biosynthesis, transport, and catabolism

    Each category requires many proteins. All have to be in place and working together or the cell is wrecked.

    So evolutionists have to believe that for each protein, pure chance laid out long strings of amino acids that fold themselves into the exact shapes needed to interact with other specialized proteins and, where needed, get help from chaperone proteins which themselves appeared by chance. The necessary proteins cannot be invented one at a time. Either they are all there, ready to work together, or nothing happens and they disintegrate. Yet even if it could design proteins, mutation-natural selection would only work on one at a time sporadically over many years. Considering just the complexity of proteins, the notion of creating them with mutation-natural selection is as silly as asking someone to build a television set with a spoon and a toothbrush. If Darwin had known what we have learned about proteins, he probably would have abandoned the theory of evolution.

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    Wow, the bits I understood were so cool! Fancy metabolism starting like that. Neato.

  • prologos
    prologos

    such ingenious experiments trying to figure out how it worked. helped along by well prepared compounds and conditions.

    Apognophos raised good points

    let the research continue to see how it was done/ happened-- in the first place.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Look everybody Perry can copy-paste!

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