Jesus was a False Prophet - But was he deluded or deceitful?

by cofty 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  cofty

  Any objective reading of the gospels makes it plain that Jesus believed his parousia would happen within the lifetime of his generation.

  His followers believed in his imminent return until the day of their deaths.

  His false prophecy damaged the lives of his disciples in a similar way to that done by the lies of modern cults like the Watchtower. Peter and others walked out on their wives, children and businesses to follow him around Palestine. Jesus taught them to put their families and other normal concerns in second place to their task of spreading his message - which turned out to be false.

  The question is what he was up to?

  Did he genuinely believe his false predictions, did he paint himself into a position where he couldn't back down, or was he a charlatan?

  I have my own ideas about this but I'm interested in your thoughts first.

  Here are just a sample of texts to support the above. Please note I am assuming there was a Jesus of history behind the myth. If you don't agree then that's a different conversation.

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  Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. - Matthew 19:27-29

  When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes - Matthew 10:23

  For the Son of Man is going to comein his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” - Matthew 16:27,28

  If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26

  Immediately after the distress of those days (prediction about fall of Jerusalem) “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory... Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.- Matthew 24:29-34

  He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” - Luke 9:59-62
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  Viviane

  Personally, I lean towards delusion and buying into his own hype.
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  cofty

  Me too. I intend to post some hints from the gospels later.
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  Viviane

  For one, around that time, the Levant was filled with people that were doing the same thing and thinking they were special. We see the same thing today. People that buy into their own hype have certain qualities that other don't, for instance, it's rarely about gaining material things. OTOH, people like Jim Bakker and Joel Osteen, it's all about the money money money.
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  snowbird

  I believe He was who He said He was - I AM - John 8:58.

  Have you not read that He calls the things that are not as if they were? Romans 4:17

  Sylvia
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  cofty

  Jesus seems to have become synonymous with goodness in the same way as Mother Theresa. The reality could not be more different from the myth.

  By any modern standard he was a dangerous cult leader.

  ETA - His followers talk in metaphors so much they don't realise they are not actually saying stuff.
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  Phizzy

  Cofty, whilst respecting your views on what the Gospels say, and therefore seeing the problems you outline, I do have to say, that though I feel in my gut there really was a Preacher/Activist upon whom the Jesus of Nazareth mythos is based, the Gospels are simply that , myth.

  Myth, not in the sense that they are false, or entirely fictional, but that they are not to be relied upon as the guide to what the Historical Jesus said, did, or believed.

  We cannot know of course, what the Historical Jesus did say, or do,or believe. We only have the Gospels, and extra-canonical works, all written way after he had died, and all written, and this is important, with an agenda.

  Usually the agenda was the promotion and furtherance of the Jesus Cult, especially after the Temple destruction of 70 C.E, when , excepting perhaps verses of Mark, the Gospels were written.

  All I can think is that the Gospels, and other writings do preserve some of what he said, which would definately point to him being somewhat delusional, believing himself to be the son of God for example, and believing that despite his inevitable death, he would "return".

  It is my gut feeling too that his message was far more political than religious in essence, it was dangerous, politically, to the jewish religious leaders, but primarily to Rome.

  It may well be contained in his "false prophets" speech which says the famous "by their fruits you will know them". the word "Prophets" in Israel, and in the Judea of the 1st century, meant not so much those versed in the art of prediction, as we think of the word today, but as Leaders of the people, leading then in a way that would benefit them.(in theory)

  Hence we get to a very Monty Python type question "What have the Romans ever done for us ", which would be coupled with, "What have the jewish leaders ever done for us?"

  When that sort of critique is applied to such oppresive leaderships they cannot let it become general thought, Jesus had to be eradicated.

  After his death the myth that was built served the purposes of those who faced new political challenges, hence the stories.
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  OnTheWayOut

  I lean far away from believing that there was a "Jesus" anything like the one of the Gospels. I believe that Paul's Jesus was the mythical type and was no more real to the people than Isis or Mythra, but that Rome's decision to embrace Christianity due to a moderate success of the ministry of Paul and others, caused the writing of the myths called the Gospels and somehow, the priests of Christianity managed to make people think that it was real.

  There were some writings about some guy that stood up to Roman authority and the rest is pure fiction. It's kind of like "inspired by true events."

  So even by the time of the writings, nobody believed that Christ would literally show up and overthrow Rome, Peter did not abandon his family to preach, Jesus was not a false prophet nor a charleton, but a myth.

  Flying Spaghetti Monster could do the same today if it weren't for the information age that helps ignorant people find out that the educated people actually do not really believe in him.
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  fulltimestudent

  In the near-contemporary ( To the Jesus movement) Qumran Community, of Dead Sea Scrolls fame, the leader of the community may have been called the 'Teacher of Righteousness'. From a Christian viewpoint he was certainly 'deluded' figure, not neccessarily because he was deceitful, but because the Jewish system of that time essentialy came to an end in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in the first century CE.

  In this description, from the Jewish Virtual Library (Reference: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0005_0_05007.html ), not how generally similar the leader of that Dead Sea community was to Jesus, the Leader of his own little community. It's easy to appreciate that while Jesus may have sincerely believed what he taught, there is absolutely no evidence that any of the supernatural promises are true.

  The Teacher of Righteousness

  While the history of the yaḥad and its parent, and the development of their ideas, are unclear, some details are extant about the founder of the sect (or one of its first leaders), who was given the title "*teacher of righteousness," chiefly in the Damascus Document and the Habakkuk Pesher. Attempts to identify him with a known historical person remain debatable. The Damascus Document uses the title of a future, perhaps messianic figure, but also applies it to an individual who arose some time after the foundation of the movement itself. Apparently, he led a group of followers to form the yaḥad, while the remainder of the movement perhaps rejected him; his death is also noted. In the Pesher literature he is presented more as a founder figure who directly clashed with an opponent called the "wicked priest," who has been identified with a number of historical personages, all Hasmoneans, but who is completely absent from the Damascus Document. Some of the biographical details of the Teacher in the Pesharim reflect allusions in the Thanksgiving Hymns, whi ch some scholars believe to have been written by the Teacher. But these details might simply have been borrowed from the Hymns by the authors of the Pesharim.
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  Dismissing servant

  We have some indications from the earliest gospel, Mark 3: 21 When his family [ b ] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”