Can we excuse the R&F for ever ?

by Phizzy 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • adamah
    adamah

    Shirley said- additionally, how do you explain the fact that blood transfusions used to be totally acceptable for a JW, but organ transplants were banned? Then the WT banned blood transfusions but allowed organ transplants. Originally, all blood fractions were also banned.

    WOW! Undermine your own argument much?

    Thanks for reminding me of the organ transplant policy change (#2), and let's not forget about the vaccine ban in the past that is now no longer a DFing offense (#3) vs in the past. Those, along with blood fractions, are now conscience matters. From the perspective of the individual, those are a lightening of the authoritarian burden, thanks to the GB policy changes over the years.

    ALL of those are granting individual JWs the right and authority to make a personal decision they weren't allowed to make in the past without facing being DFed in the past. From the perspective of the member, that's a change towards less-authoritarian control.

    And no Spit, Sparlock, OF COURSE the GB never had the authority to tell others what to do, in the first place; but that's 'begging the question', since the only ones holding JWs hostages are the individual members themselves, who apparently possess too much timidity to leave.

    BTW, if you're concerned about time-frames for the GB, I was responding to Phizzy's comment, and he stated it as the latter-half of the 20th century (1950's) to the present. It was his claim, and he set the time-frame.

    Of course, you attempted to 'move the goalposts' by quoting from some 1890's article, not that it matters: Russell may have written the words about "lack of organizational structure" etc, but it was happy clap-trap written for the consumption of the rank-and-file, which directly contradicted how he actually ran the show: he made no bones to others who exactly was in charge of the monarchy, eg board of directors had to sign their letters of resignation at the time of accepting their appointments BEFORE they served on the board, just so Russell need only sign and date the form later when/if they were to be dismissed after displeasing him. THAT'S a puppet show, exerting bald-faced power over others, letting them know without a doubt who's calling the shots.

    Russell even openly admitted to shareholders they needn't bother showing up for annual shareholder meetings, saying that he and his wife were majority shareholders, and the shareholders had no say or input into how the show was run. It was his ball of wax, and it was his way or the highway.

    I suspect you're reading what you want into the cherry-picked excerpt from the 1890's, since the actual evidence indicates that he wasn't lying: a monarchy needs no "formal organizational structure", esp one that operates as a theocracy under the delegated authority of God. You're interpreting his words to fit YOUR preconceptions, not what he actually stated.

    BTW, you're even arguing against the words of Raymond Franz now, an ex-GB member and the author of 'Crisis of Conscience':

    Raymond Franz has disputed those claims, stating that the actions of presidents Russell, Rutherford and Knorr in overriding and failing to consult with directors proved the Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses had been under a monarchical rule until 1976, leaving no decisions to any so-called "governing body". [26]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governing_Body_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

    If you read CoC, you'd know that Franz felt the official formation of a GB in 1976 was a step in the right direction to combat such consolidation of power in a single person and lead to a more theocratic congregational system led by a group of elders, and he even held out great hope for the changes which took place after he was forced to resign.

    adam: and whether it [bood fractions] was done as a pragmatic concession to avoid future wrongful death law suits is irrelevant"

    Shirley said- I wholeheartedly disagree. It is completely relevant.

    When a corporation or group in power formulates policy based on potential litigation, and not the welfare of it's ruled-over class, that again is completely authoritarian.

    Utterly absurd.

    Have you even taken an intro to gov't course? You clearly don't understand what the word "authoritarian" means if you say that, since by definition, responding to fears of litigation from forces outside of the power structure IS admitting that others have the ability to undermine one's authority via challenge from secular AUTHORITIES (namely, the judicial system).

    Religions, from RCC to JWs, understand the courts can easily limit their authoritarian control over their members with a single adverse ruling. In fact, that's the whole point of the Conti appeal: the WTBTS is fighting it, since they know their ability to exercise authority over members is at stake, and they respond to such pressures so as to reduce their exposure to liability in the future.

    But even if I conceded the point and allowed your claim that it's relevant to the matter at hand, then guess what? You get to PROVE the WTBTS intentionally changed their blood policy to avoid wrongful death lawsuits.

    Good luck with THAT!

    BTW, if you find a "smoking gun" (which somehow the WT Legal Dept missed), be sure to let lawyers for plaintiffs know what you come up with, since it would be incriminating evidence to support TONS of wrongful death claims in a slew of the landslide of courtcases, and it literally would be worth HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of $$$ to plaintiffs.

    Shirley said- You also ignored the fact that WT has hijacked a JWs conscientious decision-making rights in regard to their own healthcare. Again, how does this fit into your fantasy of a "less authoritarian" WT? Especially compared to Russell's view of organization and conscience (which you completely ignored)?

    (See comments above).

    This whole "the GB is getting more authoritarian than ever!" nonsense not only flies in the face of the actual facts, but bears more than a passing resemblance to another Chicken Little claim perpetuated mindlessly by JWs, talking about "this System of things is getting so much worse in these last days".

    Same mindless hyperbole that runs contrary to the actual evidence, but just a slightly-different flavor of the same ol' same ol' nonsensical thinking.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Cofty said- How can somebody like KingSolomon/Adam who has never been a JW find the hubris to tell ex-JWs with decades of personal experience that the GB are becoming less authoritarian?

    Keep on bangin' that "No True Scotsman" fallacy until someone salutes it, LOL!

    At least you're stubbornly consistent by not letting actual verifiable evidence get in the way of your conclusions, huh?

  • cofty
    cofty

    KingSolomon/Adam how on earth do you think you even qualify to have an opinion?

    Have you sat through thousands of hours of meetings, attended hundreds of assemblies, countless elder's meetings and schools, read dozens of letters to elders from the service committee?

    You don't know the first thing about life inside the borg - you are a self-important gasbag.

    The GB are far far more authoritarian and controlling than ever before.

    PS - You don't seem to grasp the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and please don't use LOL. You are not a giggling teenager writing a text message.

  • Separation of Powers
    Separation of Powers

    There is no excusing, only pity.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Adam, it's not my job to carry water for you. You made a ridiculous claim and still have not substantiated it. Cutting and pasting from wikipedia doesn't make you a pundit nor support your assertions.

    -

    Never being a JW yourself, I can assure you that you have no idea what you're talking about...

    [edit] Adam said: Please provide ONE CONCRETE example of how the WTBTS is more-authoritarian than it was in the past century.

    I provided the example you asked for. Instead of being a man and admitting the WT has become "more-authoritarian", which nullified your erroneous claim, you default to an oft-used tactic WT apologists use: you pick on the date the statements were published rather than acknowledging what WT actually said. Then you start arguing points that were not in play in the first place as a diversion. Classic duck-and-cover.

    -

    Additionally, since Russell was the sole authority of WT, why would he advocate the idea that organization is wholly innecessary, and personal conscience determined a person's decisions, not him? That seems fairly "hands-off" as far as authority goes. How does Russell's view compare to the GB/WT today?:

    -

    "We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval." Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24 Simplified English Edition (Incidentally, the faithful slave in now the Governing Body)

    "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14

    "The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ." Watchtower 2010 Sep 15 p.23

    "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370

    w86 1/1 p.30 Jehovah—SimplyGrand!

    If we fully recognize him as being a Grand Instructor, we will not doubt or criticize the methods of instruction Jehovah’s "faithful and discreet slave" class is using today.

    ***

    w07 4/1 p. 24 par. 12 Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave ***

    Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master.

    ---

    When a ruling authority (The GB) claims to speak for god and Jesus, what room is there for conscience? Is that not the ultimate power-grab of "authoritarian" rule?

    Flip-flopping on doctrines and changing what is/is not a disfellowshipping offense, or allowing for "conscience" within the confines of absurdly rigid mandates of WT does not constitute a 'lighter load' of authoritarian rule. Not one bit.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Cofty said- KingSolomon/Adam how on earth do you think you even qualify to have an opinion?

    Have you sat through thousands of hours of meetings, attended hundreds of assemblies, countless elder's meetings and schools, read dozens of letters to elders from the service committee? You don't know the first thing about life inside the borg - you are a self-important gasbag. The GB are far far more authoritarian and controlling than ever before.

    Cofty, I don't suppose you'd care to support your claim with any actual evidence that you used to reach that conclusion?

    Surely you're not thinking irrationally, and just going with your own pre-existing biases here to create a narrative you'd LIKE to be true? You DO know who does that kind of thing, RIGHT?

    Or will you merely sputter mindless nonsense about my inability to hold an opinion, based on your quixotic assertion that it's only via baptism that one can truly understand the JW experience?

    It's almost like you still believe in the Holy Spirit or something, actually believing that somehow getting dunked in a baptismal pool accomplishes something of actual relevance, or bestows someone with God-given 'gnosis'?

    Did it ever occur to you that perhaps some young people are able to recognize the tell-tale warning signs of a BS cult when they saw them as a teen, and were able to overcome the significant familial and peer pressure to avoid get dunked, in the first place? No? It may not have happened in your case, but it DOES happen.

    Having been raised in a family who didn't celebrate Holidays, went D2D and decade of meetings, didn't salute the flag, siblings served at Bethel, full-time pioneers who went "where the need was greater", elders, RBC committee members, etc, I've seen more than enough to know better. You know who ELSE didn't get baptized? Leolaia, for one. Will you dismiss her, too, as not worthy of holding an opinion on JWs?

    BTW, you clearly DON'T understand what the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is, if you cannot see how it applies: you're trying to discredit the evidence NOT by challenging it directly, but by dismissing the person by claiming they're not a "true JW". Silly argument that shoots yourself in the foot, since you apparently haven't graduated from college (and you aren't an ex-Mormon, or a physicist, a biologist, a doctor, a cosmologist, etc) but that doesn't stop you from discussing those topics, does it? Of course not, since only the facts you present matter. As Jesus said, "out of the mouthes of babes truth comes forth", i.e. veracity doesn't hinge on the source, but the facts speak for themselves.

    The "No True Scotsman" fallacy is an ad hominem, but even more inexcusably, it's fallacious logic: shame on you for perpetuating your personal ignorance onto others by dogmatically playing the same card, OVER and OVER.

    NOW, do you have anything to add to the topic at hand, or will you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing?

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Adam: Cofty, I don't suppose you'd care to support your claim with any actual evidence that you used to reach that conclusion?

    -

    what evidence are you offering to substantiate your claims, Adam? Answer: none. Incidentally, your opinions do not constitute evidence...no matter how loudly you shout them.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Shirley said- what evidence are you offering to substantiate your claims, Adam? Answer: none.

    Shirley, you're arguing with yourself now, if you're willing to dismiss Ray Franz's words as an authority on the GB. You HAVE read CoC, right? I could post excerpts if you haven't, but it would be a waste of time if you're not willing to accept Bro Franz as a credible authority on the matter, and defer instead to your "far greater" experience on the matter.

    At any rate, I gave you three examples to support the claim that the GB is currently exerting LESS authoritarian control than it had in the past by making the following decisions conscience matters vs DFing offenses: organ transplants, vaccines, blood fractions. All are matters of life and death, BTW, so are rather important issues.

    What was the one you claimed, again?

    Shirley said- Incidentally, your opinions do not constitute evidence...no matter how loudly you shout them.

    Yeah, no kidding, and please learn the difference between opinions and evidence since there's a difference...

  • cofty
    cofty

    based on your quixotic assertion that it's only via baptism that one can truly understand the JW experience?

    No I didn't mention baptism, Strawman fallacy.

    I'm basing my judgement of the GB on decades as an active JW, thousands of hours of meetings, hundreds of assemblies and conventions, countless elder's meetings with COs and DOs, elder schools, and dozens of letters to elders from the service committee.

    And you still don't understand the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, it's not difficult.

  • Separation of Powers
    Separation of Powers

    They GB environment is MORE authoritarian than ever...the argument can go all day long but there is one recent adjustment that proves it, cannot be refuted or minimized nor simply explained away..

    The proof is simple...it is call "BRAZEN" conduct. With that change, all authority can be wielded without remorse or regard.

    There is no argument here. If you are familiar with JW policy, were an elder at one time, or know absolutely anything about the JW judicial process, then you must accept the authoritarian ramifications of this change. Was it due to a better understanding of the original text? Absolutely not. There is no single recognized authority in ancient languages that would side with the all encompassing nature of this change. No, I'm not saying that the original text cannot be translated as "brazen," I am saying that the only reason to have ever changed it from "loose conduct" to "brazen" is to provide a broader brush with which to paint those who question...

    Consider the microphone DROPPED!

    SOP

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