by chrisuk 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I'm not a JW so I don't know what kind of response this will illicit but here's a point I'd make with respect to #3.
"Maybe you could help me out with the word "firstfruits" in Rev 14:4. After reviewing 1 Cor. 15:20-23, I'm now wondering; if Christ is the 'firstfruit' of those who have fallen asleep, who are the 144,000 'firstfruits' of? If there are 'firstfruits' shouldn't there be subsequent 'fruits?'"
Take a Look at this Link : http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/archive.htm
This has EVERY WT/Awake or Book Written by the Org in the Late 1800's and Early 1900's
Even questioning the Watchtower Society's doctrine is reason enough for disfellowshipment. You will never, as in ever, change any Witness elder's mind - so what's the point in explaining anything to him. Leave it alone friend.
Regarding your Reason 2:
Share with him Matthew 15:24 where Jesus said he was sent to none but the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This shows:
1. Jesus already used the sheep analogy to refer to his target preaching audience. He said that they are "of the house of Israel". The fold is thus identified as Jewish.
2. The fact that is ministry was exclusively targeted at the Jewish fold of lost sheep shows that the fold of his disciples must have been strictly Jewish.
Thus when he spoke of "this fold" at John 10:16 he was referring to his disciples of the Jewish fold. He could not have said "this fold" to refer to anointed christians because his disciples were not yet anointed and weren't anointed until after his death and resurrection. Since the word "this" is used to refer to something immediately present, he would not have used the expression "THIS fold" to refer to an anointed class which did not yet exist in the immediate present - at least not without first explicitly bringing up that subject in the conversation, which he didn't. What was immediately present was his all-Jewish group of followers. That, then is the "this fold" he was referring to. The "other sheep" not of this fold would thus refer to non-Jewish followers which would be brought in in the future. A careful reading of Ephesians 2:11-19 shows that it perfectly mirrors and harmonizes with Jesus' words at John 10:16.
It is likely that the elder would, in response, bring up other scriptures to prove that there is an earthly hope distinct from the heavenly one. Don't fall for that obfuscation! The only point you want to make here is that when Jesus was speaking about "other sheep" at John 10:16 he was simply refering to future ingathering of gentiles into the congregation. Don't let him try to twist the issue into a debate of whether or not there is an earthly hope. Whether or not there is an earthly hope John 10:16 is not referring to it.
i think the partaking is if you feel you recieved the holy spirit and are dedicating every minute of your life to doing GODs will and living sin free then you can approve of yourself , that is what the apostles said, to examine yourself with scrutiny because to eat and drink unworthily would mean to eat and drink judgement against yourself . Also don't think women are in on that and did have a go round with the nit wits over it some time ago , all you get is condemned anyway . Obviously jesus was talking to the apostles about 2 folds of sheep so therefor makes perfect sense to deduce he's talking about the end of segregation of Israel and inclusion of the gentiles into the covenant . The 144k I think is literal and refers to the saintly martyrs where as the great crowd has no number , makes no sense to mention a number then say well there is no number .
Thank you all for the great replies. Sorry I've only just replied, I was so tired last night I couldn't keep my eyes open once I'd made the post. I'm not baptized I was just a long term study. I'm trying to accomplish 1 of 2 things: Either the elder marks me as a trouble maker and leaves me alone for good, or, he starts questiong the wtbs's teachings him self. I know people have said you can't, and wont ever reach an elder, but I see plenty of ex-elders on this very site.
Thank you all again.
Hi Chris, I hope you get this in time. I'd love to be there with you.
Simply ask the elder this question: According to Scripture, Who Are Jesus' "brothers" and are they ALL anointed?
(Matthew 12:50) whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
(Matthew 13:38) The field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom;
(Matthew 25:40) To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.
(Mark 3:35) Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother."
(Luke 6:35) To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend, not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High,
(Luke 8:21) "My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
(John 1:12,13) However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children.........
(John 15:14) Y OU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU.
(Rom. 8:14) For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.
(1 John 5:1) Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.......... (Revised Standard Version)
Therefore, ALL Christians should be partaking of the Memorial MEAL - not just bread and wine!
I think that I'll trust what the Bible "really teaches", rather than trust a bunch of self-appointed charlatans who claim to have a closer relationship with God than anyone else on earth. Put them in a boxing ring with the Pope and let them fight it out!!
At John 10:16 Jesus said, "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
How would these 'other sheep' be identified?
To identify them, (beyond all reasonable doubt) we only have have to reason on the Scriptures.
Jesus had previously given his disciples the order, "Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar´i·tan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6)
"I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 15:24)
On both of these occasions, Jesus identifies the only group of people to whom he was to preach - the Jews!
This fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the old covenant being kept operative for the Jews for 42 months after Jesus' death.
Only after that time period had elapsed, would the the Gentiles be called in.
Paul confirmed this when he wrote, "For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek", (Gentiles) (Rom. 1:16) as well as, "for the Jew first and also for the Greek". (Rom. 2:10)
The Insight Book very concisely summarises the identity of the 'other sheep': "Jesus’ sacrificial death on the torture stake also provided the basis for canceling the Mosaic Law, which divided the Jews from the non-Jews. Therefore, upon becoming Christians, both peoples could be at peace with God and with one another. The apostle Paul wrote: "[Jesus] is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake". (it-2 p. 592 Peace)
Therefore, Jesus' 'other sheep' (non-Jews) would unite with Jews as one flock, under one shepherd.
By stating that they would become"one flock, one shepherd", Jesus made it clear that there would be no distinctions or classes amongst his sheep. He said, "All you are brothers". (Matt. 23:8)
The true context of Jesus' words at John 10:16 becomes crystal clear by reading from John 9:40. Jesus was speaking with the Jews and Pharisees who were following him around.
He was not having a personal chat with his "little flock".
From that verse onwards, Jesus is speaking of all those who would become his sheep, starting with 'this fold', (the Jews) the people to whom he was addressing.
If you have time, ask him to "explain" his Organization's teaching about so-called "New Scrolls". ('cause they'll be coming up in a Watchtower Study article in the next couple of months!)
Then discuss this with him:
What is the truth about these "New Scrolls"?
Jesus said, "Your Word is truth", so we can rely on God's Word to tell us the truth about them.
This is what Revelation 20:12 says: "And scrolls were opened ....... "And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds."
1) No "new" scrolls are mentioned.
2) The scrolls spoken about are not "new teachings", they are used as a basis to judge the dead.
3) The scrolls are not opened during Christ's 1000 year reign - read Revelation 20:1-10.
'Interpolation' means "to insert new or spurious matter", something which the angel warned against; "If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll." (Rev.22:18) This applies to the use of the word "new" in order to create a wrong teaching.
It is interesting to note that the word "new" has been quietly removed from the very latest comment on Revelation 20:12: "The resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in Revelation 20 are revealed." (Watchtower 1/09/12, p. 16) No explanation is offered for the change in the terminology!
John told Christians to "test the inspired expressions to see if they originate with God". (1 John 4:1)
Er.........whatever you say the elder/s will usually ignore your reasoning and just simply obey the watchtower(R) 'teaching' on the subject no matter how illogical it is.
You are dealing with men that are the victims of powerful thought reform. I was one of those men. It would rock their world to deviate from the watchtower(R) way of life.
